WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.000 Good morning. 00:05.000 --> 00:08.000 Good morning. Good morning. 00:08.000 --> 00:12.000 Thomas Tristanson from that company. 00:12.000 --> 00:14.000 Very happy to be here. 00:14.000 --> 00:17.000 We want to do a session that may be a little different. 00:17.000 --> 00:19.000 Of course, we will do some technical stuff here, 00:19.000 --> 00:22.000 but I want to start maybe talking a little bit about the business side 00:22.000 --> 00:26.000 of the wallet because I think it's not being spoken about quite enough. 00:26.000 --> 00:29.000 So I'm going to jump into it. 00:29.000 --> 00:32.000 So I'm going to do a quick introduction of who we are, 00:32.000 --> 00:35.000 and then talk a little bit about how we see the world, 00:35.000 --> 00:39.000 and then I'll throw it to Michael, who will dive into the more technical part of 00:39.000 --> 00:42.000 how do we actually see some of these ecosystems work, 00:42.000 --> 00:46.000 especially with the amount of legacy that we are working with out there. 00:46.000 --> 00:50.000 So the company is a 25 year young company. 00:51.000 --> 00:56.000 I grew out of a small startup today about 8,000 people, 00:56.000 --> 00:59.000 primarily operating in the northern part of Europe, 00:59.000 --> 01:03.000 but one of the things that makes us maybe a little interesting 01:03.000 --> 01:07.000 is we are one of the biggest ITC companies here in the EU, 01:07.000 --> 01:10.000 providing services to the EU institutions. 01:10.000 --> 01:14.000 And amongst others, we are together with the Commission, 01:14.000 --> 01:17.000 Development, the ARF, as well as I now know we call it, 01:17.000 --> 01:19.000 for the EU, the I wallet. 01:19.000 --> 01:23.000 So we have worked closely with the Commission here for a number of years, 01:23.000 --> 01:27.000 trying to hit it, and obviously we work with the large scale pilots, 01:27.000 --> 01:30.000 and so we are pretty engaged in this. 01:30.000 --> 01:34.000 Now one of the things that we are seeing is, 01:34.000 --> 01:37.000 I understand the value of having a driver's license. 01:37.000 --> 01:42.000 I've had it for close to 10 years, and my health card. 01:42.000 --> 01:44.000 It does not revolutionize the world. 01:44.000 --> 01:46.000 I'm sorry guys, it doesn't. 01:46.000 --> 01:49.000 So if we're going to really drive value out of the wallet, 01:49.000 --> 01:50.000 we've got to think broader. 01:50.000 --> 01:52.000 We've got to think in these industries. 01:52.000 --> 01:55.000 We've got to think at how we tie together industries. 01:55.000 --> 02:00.000 How can we use wallet certificates across the way we operate 02:00.000 --> 02:04.000 in business as well as our private lives? 02:04.000 --> 02:07.000 So this is what we really spend a lot of time doing. 02:07.000 --> 02:10.000 There will be plenty of people developing wallets. 02:10.000 --> 02:13.000 But I don't think there will be that many people developing 02:13.000 --> 02:17.000 the infrastructure to basically enable these ecosystems to function 02:17.000 --> 02:20.000 and function quick and be adaptable. 02:20.000 --> 02:22.000 So that's what we're really working on. 02:22.000 --> 02:25.000 And that's what Michael is going to say a lot more about. 02:25.000 --> 02:30.000 Now we have obviously done a lot around public sector 02:30.000 --> 02:32.000 and how we help citizen. 02:32.000 --> 02:36.000 So Denmark is one of the most digitized countries in the world. 02:36.000 --> 02:39.000 I think we're a number one measured on the UN, 02:39.000 --> 02:40.000 and we are very digitized. 02:40.000 --> 02:42.000 We've had ID for many, many years. 02:42.000 --> 02:46.000 And an ID that is used both by the private and the public sector. 02:46.000 --> 02:48.000 So we use one ID for everything. 02:48.000 --> 02:51.000 And when I go in and look how often do we use it, 02:51.000 --> 02:53.000 just in our digital communication. 02:53.000 --> 02:57.000 On an average, a day in user ID 17 times a month 02:57.000 --> 02:59.000 logging in, checking their digital communication 02:59.000 --> 03:02.000 with government, with banking insurance. 03:02.000 --> 03:06.000 So we can see how these ecosystems really start working 03:06.000 --> 03:10.000 once you start having these standard ways of using these different things. 03:10.000 --> 03:13.000 So some of that has really inspired us. 03:13.000 --> 03:15.000 We've done the corona pass. 03:15.000 --> 03:18.000 We've done a lot of application that is related to the one. 03:18.000 --> 03:20.000 So we see how this works. 03:20.000 --> 03:23.000 And that's where we see this is going to make a huge difference. 03:23.000 --> 03:25.000 So we work with education. 03:25.000 --> 03:27.000 We work with transport. 03:27.000 --> 03:28.000 We work with banking. 03:28.000 --> 03:32.000 And this is where we see really accelerator for this. 03:32.000 --> 03:36.000 So you will hear Michael talk more about how do we get in 03:36.000 --> 03:41.000 and basically enable these type of applications in different industries. 03:41.000 --> 03:44.000 With that, I'll throw it to Michael. 03:44.000 --> 03:45.000 Thank you. 03:45.000 --> 03:46.000 You're going to get this one here. 03:46.000 --> 03:47.000 We'll do a Michael. 03:47.000 --> 03:48.000 Mike Schwop. 04:00.000 --> 04:01.000 Great. 04:01.000 --> 04:03.000 So my name is Michael. 04:03.000 --> 04:08.000 And I will be talking about the ecosystems that we just heard 04:08.000 --> 04:09.000 a little bit about. 04:09.000 --> 04:10.000 Sorry. 04:10.000 --> 04:17.000 As Thomas mentioned, we are a net company. 04:17.000 --> 04:21.000 And we are working on the toolbox for the EU Commission. 04:21.000 --> 04:24.000 The toolbox for the EU-DI wallet. 04:24.000 --> 04:29.000 This toolbox is meant to help organizations, communities, 04:29.000 --> 04:34.000 industries to hook in to the EU-DI wallet ecosystems 04:34.000 --> 04:37.000 when it is being implemented. 04:37.000 --> 04:42.000 We are, that is one part of the task. 04:42.000 --> 04:46.000 Another part is us, the company as a business, 04:46.000 --> 04:51.000 reaching out to countries, organizations. 04:51.000 --> 04:54.000 And this is both the private and public sector. 04:54.000 --> 04:58.000 We are working with them, regarding the EU-DI wallet. 04:58.000 --> 05:00.000 The EU-DI has two. 05:00.000 --> 05:02.000 We will be a reality soon. 05:02.000 --> 05:05.000 How are you going to be compliant with it? 05:05.000 --> 05:10.000 How are you going to be taking advantage of the EU-DI wallet 05:10.000 --> 05:14.000 as an infrastructure in your own country? 05:14.000 --> 05:17.000 They all countries have their own ecosystems now. 05:17.000 --> 05:21.000 They are at different matured levels, of course. 05:21.000 --> 05:25.000 And they are done quite a lot of investments in these infrastructure 05:25.000 --> 05:27.000 and ecosystem. 05:27.000 --> 05:29.000 They are not willing to throw that away. 05:29.000 --> 05:33.000 So they need to figure out how do we create the synergy effects 05:33.000 --> 05:36.000 with what we have, what we have to throw away, 05:36.000 --> 05:38.000 and how can we take advantage of the wallet 05:38.000 --> 05:42.000 as an enabler in our future digitization? 05:42.000 --> 05:45.000 So we have spent quite a lot of time 05:45.000 --> 05:48.000 traveling around, talking with these organizations, 05:48.000 --> 05:52.000 and understanding the challenges, 05:52.000 --> 05:54.000 opportunities, etc. 05:54.000 --> 05:57.000 What's really interesting about EIDS2, 05:57.000 --> 06:00.000 and the EU-DI wallet, if you don't know, 06:00.000 --> 06:04.000 the EU-DI wallet is part of the EIDS2, 06:04.000 --> 06:11.000 is that it invites the collaboration between public and private sector. 06:11.000 --> 06:13.000 So as Thomas mentioned, 06:13.000 --> 06:15.000 this is very natural in Denmark. 06:15.000 --> 06:17.000 It's been done for many years. 06:17.000 --> 06:23.000 It's very easy for citizens when they have one way to do things, 06:23.000 --> 06:26.000 regardless if it's in your communication, 06:26.000 --> 06:30.000 and your flows, use of flows with the public sector, 06:30.000 --> 06:33.000 or the private sector. 06:33.000 --> 06:35.000 So banking and pension, 06:35.000 --> 06:41.000 usually industries with a high level of compliance requirements. 06:41.000 --> 06:44.000 This session is about how can we 06:44.000 --> 06:47.000 who gains to these EIDS2 ecosystems. 06:47.000 --> 06:53.000 So with an emphasis on legacy systems. 06:53.000 --> 06:56.000 So when I say legacy systems, what do we mean about that? 06:56.000 --> 07:01.000 I mean all the systems that has probably served 07:01.000 --> 07:04.000 a lot of most of its value already. 07:04.000 --> 07:10.000 It is now a critical part of an organization's business processes. 07:10.000 --> 07:14.000 Not something that you can remove, 07:14.000 --> 07:19.000 but they also usually come with the cost of a high friction 07:19.000 --> 07:24.000 when they want to change business flows, business processes. 07:24.000 --> 07:29.000 And that in some cases hurts these businesses, 07:29.000 --> 07:33.000 but has a hard time finding their way out of it. 07:33.000 --> 07:36.000 It's part of some of the deliveries of projects that we do, 07:36.000 --> 07:40.000 is helping organizations coming out of a legacy system 07:40.000 --> 07:44.000 or doing a legacy transformation. 07:44.000 --> 07:47.000 One of the challenges we see is, 07:47.000 --> 07:51.000 and we can see regarding specifically for the EIDI wallet, 07:51.000 --> 07:56.000 is a lot of the open source communities focus very much 07:56.000 --> 08:00.000 on the current technologies, the current languages. 08:00.000 --> 08:05.000 Also because the standards are written for this, 08:05.000 --> 08:11.000 but that makes it hard for to embrace these new technologies 08:11.000 --> 08:15.000 when you have an old system built 30 years ago. 08:15.000 --> 08:27.000 And you need a tool to help you come across these challenges. 08:27.000 --> 08:30.000 And we'll get back to that in a second. 08:30.000 --> 08:38.000 These older systems are usually not very user process, 08:38.000 --> 08:44.000 specifically very much transaction based on financial transaction, 08:44.000 --> 08:45.000 etc. 08:45.000 --> 08:49.000 Something you have a abstraction way from the user, 08:49.000 --> 08:54.000 while a distributed architecture like the wallet, 08:54.000 --> 08:58.000 you have the user in the flows. 08:58.000 --> 09:02.000 So they are looking at, you have a challenge here 09:02.000 --> 09:06.000 from a technical perspective of how do you move these business 09:06.000 --> 09:09.000 process to the user, the citizen, or the customer, 09:09.000 --> 09:11.000 depending on your user group. 09:11.000 --> 09:15.000 But looking at the benefits of using this, 09:15.000 --> 09:18.000 of embracing the wallet, 09:18.000 --> 09:24.000 is that you get a much better understanding of your business process. 09:24.000 --> 09:27.000 You get a much better understanding of your data. 09:27.000 --> 09:31.000 And you also have a very, 09:31.000 --> 09:36.000 the last point here is you have an opportunity 09:36.000 --> 09:40.000 to have an easier way of getting compliant, 09:40.000 --> 09:43.000 like GDPR for instance. 09:43.000 --> 09:49.000 All our systems, the data they have of citizens or customers, 09:49.000 --> 09:53.000 for instance in a bank, is probably, 09:53.000 --> 09:55.000 a lot of it is in unstructured data. 09:55.000 --> 09:58.000 When I say unstructured data, it could be a document, 09:58.000 --> 10:00.000 like a letter, a contract. 10:00.000 --> 10:03.000 And the data, the sensitive data, 10:03.000 --> 10:07.000 it could be just text in that document. 10:07.000 --> 10:09.000 It's very hard to be compliant, 10:09.000 --> 10:12.000 because you have a hard time as an organization, 10:12.000 --> 10:16.000 knowing what data do I have sensitive data of this person. 10:16.000 --> 10:19.000 If that person requests to get this data deleted, 10:19.000 --> 10:21.000 what documents do I have to delete? 10:21.000 --> 10:24.000 When you're going on using more structure, 10:24.000 --> 10:27.000 like theifiable credentials, where you have specific attributes 10:27.000 --> 10:29.000 with the sensitive data, 10:29.000 --> 10:33.000 it can become an easier task to be compliant. 10:33.000 --> 10:35.000 So I'll give an example. 10:35.000 --> 10:37.000 A couple of three or four years ago, 10:37.000 --> 10:43.000 I was involved in a large legacy transformation program in Denmark. 10:43.000 --> 10:46.000 This was a system that was responsible for paying out salary 10:46.000 --> 10:49.000 to about a million people. 10:49.000 --> 10:53.000 This was for a public sector organization. 10:53.000 --> 10:59.000 So one of the issues where it was a very old system. 10:59.000 --> 11:06.000 And it was a mainframe system written mostly in Cobalt Code. 11:06.000 --> 11:09.000 It's okay because you can still find a lot of people 11:09.000 --> 11:12.000 who know this language, that's good. 11:12.000 --> 11:16.000 But the rules for the salary was written in a completely 11:16.000 --> 11:18.000 preparatory language. 11:18.000 --> 11:21.000 And very few people knew about this. 11:21.000 --> 11:23.000 It took five years to master. 11:23.000 --> 11:27.000 And the youngest person was 58 years old. 11:27.000 --> 11:29.000 And you know, like... 11:33.000 --> 11:34.000 Yeah. 11:34.000 --> 11:36.000 And every time legislation changes, 11:36.000 --> 11:41.000 or unions, they change the salary 11:41.000 --> 11:44.000 and rules and the options. 11:44.000 --> 11:46.000 And this happened all the time. 11:46.000 --> 11:51.000 They needed these people to implement these rules into the system 11:51.000 --> 11:53.000 to be able to pay out salary. 11:53.000 --> 11:54.000 And if you don't pay out salary, 11:54.000 --> 11:57.000 people are going to be angry, very quickly. 11:57.000 --> 11:59.000 So it was a very hard time for... 11:59.000 --> 12:02.000 They could see, okay, we are on a burning platform. 12:02.000 --> 12:05.000 We need to get this modernized. 12:05.000 --> 12:09.000 But the modernization had been extended over years. 12:09.000 --> 12:11.000 It was a public system. 12:11.000 --> 12:14.000 So it needs to go out and tendering, of course. 12:14.000 --> 12:17.000 But they didn't know what the system could do. 12:17.000 --> 12:20.000 The documentation state was very bad. 12:20.000 --> 12:23.000 So it had been postponed for a number of years. 12:23.000 --> 12:31.000 And that had prevented the modernization of this system. 12:31.000 --> 12:33.000 So what had to be done is, 12:33.000 --> 12:36.000 was we have to map all the processes. 12:37.000 --> 12:40.000 We have to map all the functionality. 12:40.000 --> 12:44.000 Get it documented so that we can transition it. 12:44.000 --> 12:48.000 So this is what I'm trying to illustrate here. 12:48.000 --> 12:50.000 In a more generic way, 12:50.000 --> 12:54.000 there can be many reasons why I want to... 12:54.000 --> 12:57.000 To sunset your legacy systems. 12:57.000 --> 13:02.000 Some of it is you want to not be on a burning platform. 13:02.000 --> 13:05.000 Other times you just want to be more flexible 13:05.000 --> 13:09.000 and more agile in your building solutions. 13:09.000 --> 13:11.000 But you do it in... 13:11.000 --> 13:14.000 If you map out the functionality, 13:14.000 --> 13:17.000 you can also transition this iteratively. 13:17.000 --> 13:21.000 And that becomes a data governance task. 13:21.000 --> 13:26.000 So one of the things that we did regarding this salary payout system, 13:26.000 --> 13:32.000 were, okay, let's look at this on a complete data specific perspective. 13:32.000 --> 13:34.000 What comes in? 13:35.000 --> 13:37.000 And what comes out? 13:37.000 --> 13:43.000 In this case, some reports on how much time people have spent on what task came in. 13:43.000 --> 13:47.000 And in the end, there were some transactions on payouts. 13:47.000 --> 13:49.000 How much should each individual have? 13:49.000 --> 13:54.000 That's a very easy way of seeing, okay, just look at it as a black box. 13:54.000 --> 13:57.000 When the new system goes online, 13:57.000 --> 14:00.000 we can verify that it works exactly like the old system 14:00.000 --> 14:03.000 by looking at what comes in and what goes out. 14:03.000 --> 14:05.000 This would be identical. 14:05.000 --> 14:09.000 And from then on, you can break it down to even smaller bits. 14:09.000 --> 14:14.000 And these bits are the red ones here. 14:14.000 --> 14:17.000 It could be business processes, it could be a data perspective, 14:17.000 --> 14:19.000 specifically. 14:19.000 --> 14:24.000 When you have these maps, this map put out. 14:24.000 --> 14:30.000 That you have a good idea of what the system should be able to do. 14:30.000 --> 14:39.000 You also have a good perspective on how to change the system to accommodate new requirements for the business processes. 14:39.000 --> 14:42.000 But what has this to do with wallet? 14:42.000 --> 14:46.000 Now, these small bits and this data perspective, 14:46.000 --> 14:52.000 these processes is what can enable organizations to create innovation. 14:52.000 --> 15:00.000 And the wallet to embrace the potential that is in the EUDI wallet. 15:00.000 --> 15:06.000 It's a common framework of exchanging contextual rich data. 15:06.000 --> 15:12.000 That's a data governance task in its essence. 15:12.000 --> 15:14.000 So of course, there are some technical bits. 15:14.000 --> 15:16.000 How do we exchange this? 15:16.000 --> 15:21.000 But industries, countries across countries within countries. 15:21.000 --> 15:24.000 They need to figure out what kind of data models. 15:24.000 --> 15:25.000 What are the schemas? 15:25.000 --> 15:29.000 How do we need what is necessary to exchange? 15:29.000 --> 15:32.000 And when you have that and you have a common understanding, 15:32.000 --> 15:40.000 you can take advantage of this infrastructure and exchange in data. 15:40.000 --> 15:43.000 This slide here, and I can see I'm a little bit behind schedule, 15:43.000 --> 15:49.000 but it shows what the EUDI wallet can become. 15:49.000 --> 15:58.000 It can become an infrastructure where citizens carry their data in a common way across all of Europe. 15:58.000 --> 16:05.000 It can help businesses exchange data with citizens, 16:05.000 --> 16:11.000 but also it can help these businesses. 16:11.000 --> 16:15.000 And when I say business, just both public and private sex, of course. 16:15.000 --> 16:25.000 These organizations, they no longer need to have expensive integrations with centralized infrastructure. 16:25.000 --> 16:31.000 So in Denmark, if I want to have a loan in the bank, I go to the bank. 16:31.000 --> 16:37.000 They ask me for consent that they will fetch data from the taxation authorities to figure out how much did I own last year, 16:37.000 --> 16:42.000 so that they can give me an offer for a loan for the car I want. 16:43.000 --> 16:46.000 This integrations is expensive. 16:46.000 --> 16:50.000 They have to build it, they also have to maintain it. 16:50.000 --> 16:56.000 Now I could just come with my taxation ticket issued by the taxation authorities. 16:56.000 --> 17:00.000 And then I say, this is what I earned last year or the last three months. 17:00.000 --> 17:03.000 And they can verify this. 17:03.000 --> 17:06.000 So this is the contextual data. 17:06.000 --> 17:13.000 It's something where people can come with different issued credentials. 17:13.000 --> 17:20.000 And this can become a profile for that person that they can handle or to a organization. 17:20.000 --> 17:22.000 And say, hey, give me your best offer. 17:22.000 --> 17:24.000 You have all the information you need. 17:24.000 --> 17:27.000 And I know exactly what I have shared with you. 17:27.000 --> 17:29.000 So it's very much transparent. 17:29.000 --> 17:35.000 But one of the challenges going back to the legacy system 17:35.000 --> 17:40.000 is these existing systems over here. 17:40.000 --> 17:48.000 They are maybe rather hard to change. 17:48.000 --> 17:54.000 They take a long time to change to support these new processes. 17:54.000 --> 17:57.000 As I just mentioned, this pay off system. 17:57.000 --> 18:05.000 So what we after talks with different authorities and companies, 18:05.000 --> 18:13.000 putting in a component that knows about the UDI protocols or other wallets for that matter, 18:13.000 --> 18:21.000 and building a technology that is very flexible in its way to integrate with different systems, 18:22.000 --> 18:27.000 using different protocols, fetching data from different registries. 18:27.000 --> 18:33.000 And then being able to use that data to issue credentials that is complying with the data models 18:33.000 --> 18:38.000 that has been agreed across industries or countries. 18:38.000 --> 18:39.000 I will skip this one. 18:39.000 --> 18:42.000 This is just looking a bit deeper into this wallet, 18:42.000 --> 18:48.000 I've called it in this slide, but creating flows that use as the UDI wallet, 18:48.000 --> 18:56.000 but uses it in processes that exist or with data sources outside their own organizations. 18:56.000 --> 19:02.000 This is what can help build the flexibility needed to support the processes. 19:02.000 --> 19:09.000 This is just an perspective of showing, okay, if you don't have this, 19:09.000 --> 19:19.000 well, you're going to have to build a support for these protocols in all your systems that is relevant for the UDI ecosystem. 19:19.000 --> 19:23.000 That's going to be expensive, also to maintain over time. 19:23.000 --> 19:26.000 Some of them are all systems. 19:26.000 --> 19:27.000 That's going to be very expensive. 19:27.000 --> 19:31.000 Some of them might be new, that is probably not a very large sustain. 19:32.000 --> 19:43.000 You can, if you, if you, the third part here, if you have this component, a broker or connector or whatever you call it, 19:43.000 --> 19:46.000 this is where you can define your business processes. 19:46.000 --> 19:50.000 And you, you build your flows, close to the business process, 19:50.000 --> 19:53.000 not your systems, which might be 25 years old. 19:54.000 --> 20:01.000 You can also, which we, we, you mentioned before, you could also build some business logic specifically for you, 20:01.000 --> 20:04.000 maybe the industry or that organization into the wallet, 20:04.000 --> 20:07.000 but then you have a wallet to maintain as an organization. 20:07.000 --> 20:11.000 That's going to be a high cost for many, for many organizations. 20:11.000 --> 20:14.000 Communities could lower that friction, of course, 20:14.000 --> 20:22.000 but it will also reduce the benefits of having a standard way of communicating, 20:22.000 --> 20:24.000 using DEI as two. 20:24.000 --> 20:28.000 One of the, the benefits of the EODI wallet is, 20:28.000 --> 20:33.000 you can, you can use your Belgian wallet in Denmark, right, 20:33.000 --> 20:37.000 with these systems in Denmark, because they know how to communicate. 20:37.000 --> 20:47.000 And that was my primary point, is that the wallet, 20:47.000 --> 20:51.000 when you, of mapping out processes, mapping out the data, 20:51.000 --> 20:55.000 it's kind of the same task you're going to, 20:55.000 --> 20:59.000 we are used to do when you, legacy transformation, 20:59.000 --> 21:03.000 the same applies to when when organizations need to, 21:03.000 --> 21:07.000 who get into the EODI as two ecosystems. 21:07.000 --> 21:13.000 And when you have that, you can use this as a transitioning tool, 21:13.000 --> 21:17.000 and then enable of when you're modernizing your, your systems. 21:17.000 --> 21:18.000 Yes? 21:18.000 --> 21:19.000 Thank you. 21:19.000 --> 21:22.000 If anyone has a question, please raise your hand. 21:22.000 --> 21:24.000 If I get asked for a speaker, is when someone does ask a question, 21:24.000 --> 21:26.000 if you could repeat it in the mic, 21:26.000 --> 21:28.000 if we get it the recording of the awesome, I didn't do that. 21:28.000 --> 21:29.000 So, thanks. 21:31.000 --> 21:33.000 Maybe I have a question for the next company, too. 21:33.000 --> 21:34.000 Yeah. 21:36.000 --> 21:38.000 Yeah, so, yes. 21:38.000 --> 21:39.000 Question. 21:39.000 --> 21:40.000 Yeah, yeah, I'm trying. 21:41.000 --> 21:42.000 Yeah. 21:42.000 --> 21:48.000 So, is there any open source implementations of the EODI wallet? 21:48.000 --> 21:49.000 Yeah. 21:49.000 --> 21:53.000 So, the toolbox that we're building is open source, 21:53.000 --> 21:55.000 so it's all on GitHub. 21:55.000 --> 21:58.000 We can send out some links afterwards. 21:58.000 --> 21:59.000 Yeah. 22:01.000 --> 22:02.000 Yeah? 22:02.000 --> 22:05.000 The broker you mentioned is that something generic, 22:05.000 --> 22:07.000 that you can be used as multiple organizations, 22:07.000 --> 22:10.000 to use the same system or do I have to build a broker in my organization, 22:10.000 --> 22:12.000 to use my specific needs? 22:12.000 --> 22:13.000 Yeah. 22:13.000 --> 22:16.000 And then you'll go to different broker for your specific needs. 22:16.000 --> 22:17.000 Yeah. 22:17.000 --> 22:22.000 So, this broker here, is that a generic one that anyone can take, 22:22.000 --> 22:26.000 and reuse right now, 22:26.000 --> 22:29.000 that we can see in the market that this is not, 22:29.000 --> 22:32.000 we are not the only ones who came up with this concept. 22:32.000 --> 22:37.000 Of course, so there will be commercial partners trying to, 22:37.000 --> 22:40.000 that will offer a broker that you can use to, 22:40.000 --> 22:43.000 let's say, bootstrap this pattern into your system. 22:43.000 --> 22:44.000 Yes. 22:44.000 --> 22:47.000 And it's also something that we are looking into, 22:47.000 --> 22:53.000 how can we use a generic broker with the minimum of functionality 22:53.000 --> 22:58.000 that is coming across countries, organizations, industry, etc. 22:58.000 --> 22:59.000 Yeah. 22:59.000 --> 23:00.000 Yeah? 23:01.000 --> 23:02.000 Yeah? 23:02.000 --> 23:03.000 Yes. 23:03.000 --> 23:04.000 Yes. 23:04.000 --> 23:08.000 So, you are asking why would then my implement this, 23:08.000 --> 23:12.000 since we already have the ID, we have also driver's license 23:12.000 --> 23:14.000 and health cards, etc. 23:14.000 --> 23:18.000 In what it's, one of the reasons is they have to. 23:18.000 --> 23:21.000 So, we have the ID, we have also drivers license 23:21.000 --> 23:23.000 and health cards, etc. 23:23.000 --> 23:27.000 In what it's, one of the reasons is they have to, 23:28.000 --> 23:32.000 so the ID has two states that in November, 26, 23:32.000 --> 23:37.000 so in one and a half year, all countries in the EU have to supply 23:37.000 --> 23:39.000 at least one wallet. 23:39.000 --> 23:42.000 It needs to be out in November, 26, so in one and a half year, 23:42.000 --> 23:45.000 and the year after there's some legislation in regards, 23:45.000 --> 23:50.000 then you need to be able to support using the credentials in it. 23:50.000 --> 23:51.000 Yes? 23:51.000 --> 23:53.000 So, and that's where I think it's critical for the users to drive 23:53.000 --> 23:54.000 adoption for the users. 23:54.000 --> 23:57.000 We'll be to see some value in it. 23:57.000 --> 24:00.000 And that's where the context, that they are contextual driven, 24:00.000 --> 24:03.000 contextual carrying days. 24:03.000 --> 24:07.000 That's where users, citizens, customers. 24:07.000 --> 24:12.000 And that's where they are contextual driven, contextual carrying days. 24:12.000 --> 24:17.000 That's where users, citizens, customers. 24:17.000 --> 24:27.000 They can use these credentials in other flows than they can today. 24:27.000 --> 24:31.000 Today, it's mostly, we have the drivers license, 24:31.000 --> 24:34.000 which is one example, of course. 24:34.000 --> 24:39.000 But this can become a standard that can accelerate 24:39.000 --> 24:44.000 not only authorities to use a very limited number of credentials, 24:44.000 --> 24:48.000 but enabling industries to say, hey, this is something that you can use 24:48.000 --> 24:49.000 and take advantage of. 24:49.000 --> 24:53.000 Now you can issue your tickets to the concerts in this format 24:53.000 --> 24:58.000 and you, every citizen has this in their pocket. 24:58.000 --> 25:09.000 So, but it requires the industries to take advantage of it, of course. 25:09.000 --> 25:10.000 Yeah? 25:10.000 --> 25:11.000 Yes. 25:11.000 --> 25:15.000 In the last slide, you mentioned how embedding logic, 25:15.000 --> 25:18.000 more in the water making the wallets, yeah, more complex. 25:18.000 --> 25:19.000 Yeah. 25:19.000 --> 25:24.000 Of course, as it's focused, it doesn't that be way forward to 25:24.000 --> 25:29.000 instead of just having your wallets, but they still actually give it all the power 25:29.000 --> 25:33.000 you can see to, is zero knowledge to boost them, 25:34.000 --> 25:39.000 you can do all those very tools, but then we'll all require a lot of 25:39.000 --> 25:41.000 more complex Walletary. 25:41.000 --> 25:42.000 Yeah? 25:42.000 --> 25:43.000 Yeah. 25:43.000 --> 25:50.000 You're asking, regarding the middle version here, 25:50.000 --> 25:56.000 that I'm, so, who is going to embrace this? 25:56.000 --> 26:01.000 This country, who will use this pattern and then use a, let's call it a 26:01.000 --> 26:03.000 Vanilla, EUDI Walletary. 26:03.000 --> 26:06.000 There's no model that will be the only tools. 26:06.000 --> 26:09.000 Some cases, this will be the way forward. 26:09.000 --> 26:13.000 The middle one will be way forward for a, let's say, an industry 26:13.000 --> 26:18.000 and an organization, an organization, because you want 26:18.000 --> 26:21.000 specific business logic tied into your wallet. 26:21.000 --> 26:27.000 But, look at it from the citizen's perspective. 26:27.000 --> 26:34.000 You, you really don't want 70 different wallets, right? 26:34.000 --> 26:38.000 You, you, and you, it might not be realistic to have one wallets 26:38.000 --> 26:43.000 to rule them all, but there's some middle ground somewhere, 26:43.000 --> 26:49.000 and for many organizations, they, they, they won't have that business 26:49.000 --> 26:54.000 centralized in the wallet, but they, they can take advantage of the ecosystem 26:54.000 --> 27:00.000 in their systems, and that's when they just, just hooking into a wallet 27:00.000 --> 27:05.000 is value valuable for them, but not enough that they want to invest in a, 27:05.000 --> 27:07.000 in a, in a specific wallet. 27:07.000 --> 27:12.000 And I think, my, when we look at, my, but when we look at like businesses, 27:12.000 --> 27:14.000 we look at industries. 27:14.000 --> 27:18.000 If you have in countries specific business wallets for, 27:18.000 --> 27:20.000 it could be the business authorities. 27:20.000 --> 27:23.000 When you start doing cross-border, it creates all kinds of problems 27:23.000 --> 27:27.000 when you're entering, and you have to have their wallet to do business in that country. 27:27.000 --> 27:30.000 So there's a lot of, you know, I think, 27:30.000 --> 27:34.000 pains in having it in a, the logic in the wallet. 27:34.000 --> 27:38.000 You risk closing off the ecosystem, right? 27:38.000 --> 27:42.000 That, that's a risk, depending on how you're doing it. 27:42.000 --> 27:44.000 Don't be risk. 27:44.000 --> 27:47.000 Just missing the, very, because of course, 27:47.000 --> 27:51.000 that's just way more flexible and you can do the really, really things 27:51.000 --> 27:52.000 of the people actually. 27:52.000 --> 27:55.000 Because now if you ask the common people on the streets, 27:55.000 --> 27:57.000 doing using this to wallet, they will just say, 27:57.000 --> 27:59.000 why I'd bring out the view on saying, you know, 27:59.000 --> 28:03.000 it does all I do, but it does all I want to do, 28:03.000 --> 28:07.000 but the reading, who applications are between, 28:07.000 --> 28:09.000 both linking them by, 28:09.000 --> 28:11.000 up thing for the third option. 28:11.000 --> 28:14.000 The less flexible one, the one that will, 28:14.000 --> 28:17.000 not going to be able to speak to the new platform, 28:17.000 --> 28:22.000 because, you know, it's not as well as the flexible solution. 28:22.000 --> 28:23.000 Yes. 28:23.000 --> 28:27.000 I can try and repeat what you just said for the, 28:27.000 --> 28:29.000 the audience online, but yeah, yeah. 28:29.000 --> 28:34.000 So, I think I'll repeat a bit myself. 28:34.000 --> 28:39.000 It does not one model that will, that will be the only model, 28:39.000 --> 28:41.000 but for many organizations, 28:41.000 --> 28:45.000 just being able to hook into the ecosystem when I say that, 28:45.000 --> 28:47.000 that is both for, as a relying party, 28:47.000 --> 28:51.000 verify credentials, but also issuing credentials. 28:51.000 --> 28:54.000 It's enough to use the standard flows, 28:54.000 --> 28:57.000 using whatever wallet the user has. 28:57.000 --> 28:58.000 Right? 28:58.000 --> 29:03.000 In some cases, maybe a custom wallet is, 29:04.000 --> 29:08.000 offering that is part of the offering for that organization, 29:08.000 --> 29:10.000 like a bank, for instance. 29:10.000 --> 29:17.000 And it, where building in a custom logic is added value 29:17.000 --> 29:19.000 to that customer experience, 29:19.000 --> 29:22.000 but those that will be very large organizations, 29:22.000 --> 29:26.000 I think that will be able to, 29:26.000 --> 29:30.000 to support an application like this, 29:30.000 --> 29:32.000 and in specific industries, 29:32.000 --> 29:35.000 most of them just needs to be able to issue an access station. 29:35.000 --> 29:36.000 Yeah? 29:36.000 --> 29:37.000 Sorry, it's interesting. 29:37.000 --> 29:40.000 It's easy to really show that if you want to introduce some logic 29:40.000 --> 29:45.000 in your wallet, that's each hand, each organization needs to create 29:45.000 --> 29:46.000 an old wallet. 29:46.000 --> 29:48.000 Can we not have a standardized wallet, 29:48.000 --> 29:50.000 that can support some kind of logic, 29:50.000 --> 29:51.000 for example, zero knowledge proof, 29:51.000 --> 29:55.000 which I know there will be a presentation about later, 29:55.000 --> 29:57.000 and can we not have standardized wallet, 29:57.000 --> 29:59.000 so it's user-friendly, 29:59.000 --> 30:02.000 and valid brokers for legacy organizations, 30:02.000 --> 30:05.000 and then you organization through projects 30:05.000 --> 30:08.000 can use more complex wallet features. 30:08.000 --> 30:09.000 Yeah, of course. 30:09.000 --> 30:11.000 Yeah, I agree. 30:11.000 --> 30:13.000 We are going to see, 30:13.000 --> 30:15.000 a hype does nothing in the, yeah, 30:15.000 --> 30:18.000 as to the stage, you cannot do anything. 30:18.000 --> 30:19.000 It's staged. 30:19.000 --> 30:21.000 This is the minimal requirements for wallet. 30:21.000 --> 30:24.000 You need to be compliant with this. 30:25.000 --> 30:28.000 You can add whatever functionality is required, 30:28.000 --> 30:30.000 and I think in reality, 30:30.000 --> 30:35.000 we're going to see a number of wallets 30:35.000 --> 30:40.000 that has custom logic within that offering, 30:40.000 --> 30:45.000 but looking at the volume of transactions. 30:45.000 --> 30:47.000 Most of them, I think, 30:47.000 --> 30:51.000 will be vanilla, AI-2, compliant flows. 30:51.000 --> 30:53.000 I'd like to thank Thomas and Michael, 30:53.000 --> 30:54.000 so much. 30:54.000 --> 30:55.000 This is a great session. 30:55.000 --> 30:56.000 Also, don't forget data portability. 30:56.000 --> 30:58.000 We don't want to be locked into anyone's wallet. 30:58.000 --> 31:01.000 We want to be able to take our toys to other walls. 31:01.000 --> 31:03.000 Do more for us or Thomas problems. 31:03.000 --> 31:04.000 But thank you, Nick company. 31:04.000 --> 31:05.000 Thank you both. 31:05.000 --> 31:06.000 Thank you. 31:06.000 --> 31:07.000 Thank you. 31:07.000 --> 31:08.000 Thank you. 31:08.000 --> 31:09.000 Thank you. 31:09.000 --> 31:10.000 Thank you. 31:10.000 --> 31:11.000 Thank you.