WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.000 We have a big deal. 00:05.000 --> 00:07.000 We have a big deal. 00:07.000 --> 00:09.000 We have a general fund for now. 00:09.000 --> 00:10.000 We're talking about business, business, 00:10.000 --> 00:13.000 business, technologies, and the infrastructure. 00:13.000 --> 00:14.000 Sounds right. 00:14.000 --> 00:17.000 How we would be if we was a different talk. 00:17.000 --> 00:19.000 Okay, so my first time at FosterM, 00:19.000 --> 00:21.000 so this has been amazing. 00:21.000 --> 00:24.000 And I fully expected to be able to have a break 00:24.000 --> 00:26.000 between presentation I saw this morning 00:26.000 --> 00:29.000 and this could put together some more robust slides. 00:29.000 --> 00:31.000 I ended up getting into a lot of conversations 00:31.000 --> 00:32.000 and all right. 00:32.000 --> 00:34.000 I've had no time. 00:34.000 --> 00:36.000 So I've got a couple that are specific to this talk 00:36.000 --> 00:38.000 and then I'm going to recycle some slides 00:38.000 --> 00:39.000 from an earlier talk. 00:39.000 --> 00:43.000 So apologies for that, but also great content. 00:43.000 --> 00:45.000 I hope everyone has had a chance 00:45.000 --> 00:46.000 to read this wall of text. 00:46.000 --> 00:48.000 It's the only real wall of text that exists. 00:48.000 --> 00:51.000 Does anyone know what this is about up here? 00:51.000 --> 00:52.000 Already? 00:52.000 --> 00:53.000 It's too long. 00:53.000 --> 00:54.000 It's too long. 00:54.000 --> 00:57.000 Take a second. 00:59.000 --> 01:08.000 So as you finish, as you finish reading, 01:08.000 --> 01:09.000 I'm not kidding. 01:09.000 --> 01:10.000 Fantastic. 01:10.000 --> 01:11.000 Some people do. 01:11.000 --> 01:13.000 As you finish reading, 01:13.000 --> 01:15.000 let's take back to 18. 01:15.000 --> 01:16.000 I think it's 54. 01:16.000 --> 01:19.000 There was an outbreak in Chicago. 01:19.000 --> 01:21.000 Oh, it's either malaria or cholera, 01:21.000 --> 01:23.000 something, just really. 01:23.000 --> 01:25.000 It killed 6% of the population. 01:25.000 --> 01:27.000 This is because Chicago at the time 01:27.000 --> 01:31.000 was built kind of in a ditch from the surrounding area. 01:31.000 --> 01:34.000 So water would get down into the city and just kind of pool there. 01:34.000 --> 01:37.000 And as we all know, cities are generally filthy, 01:37.000 --> 01:40.000 because humans, we are what we are. 01:40.000 --> 01:42.000 And if there's water there, it's going to stay stagnant. 01:42.000 --> 01:43.000 It's going to breed disease. 01:43.000 --> 01:44.000 And well, it did. 01:44.000 --> 01:45.000 And they killed, again, 6%. 01:45.000 --> 01:47.000 That's a lot of people. 01:47.000 --> 01:50.000 But being who they were at the time, 01:50.000 --> 01:52.000 the people of Chicago got together and said, 01:52.000 --> 01:55.000 hey, our infrastructure is not really good enough. 01:55.000 --> 01:57.000 It's killing us. 01:57.000 --> 02:02.000 So they went around and they literally rose the city. 02:02.000 --> 02:05.000 Feet, like six, seven, eight feet. 02:05.000 --> 02:08.000 One building at a time, one block at a time, 02:08.000 --> 02:11.000 and put a sewer system in under the cities. 02:11.000 --> 02:12.000 There were some wooden cities. 02:12.000 --> 02:15.000 There are some wooden buildings that maybe weren't going to exist 02:15.000 --> 02:16.000 in the new future. 02:16.000 --> 02:18.000 And they took those and they put them to the outskirts. 02:18.000 --> 02:21.000 They moved the buildings to the outskirts of the city. 02:21.000 --> 02:23.000 But for the most part, all the masonry 02:23.000 --> 02:25.000 was, again, blocks at a time. 02:25.000 --> 02:28.000 Like full city blocks raised up on thousands of screws. 02:28.000 --> 02:29.000 Like jacks. 02:29.000 --> 02:30.000 And they would screw them in. 02:30.000 --> 02:32.000 It was slowly raised the building. 02:32.000 --> 02:34.000 And they installed sewer. 02:34.000 --> 02:36.000 This is mind blowing to me. 02:36.000 --> 02:39.000 They did it in a way, is this person's describing 02:39.000 --> 02:42.000 that the public, they didn't shut anything down. 02:42.000 --> 02:46.000 The public kept going to these stores while they were actively being raised. 02:46.000 --> 02:49.000 And people didn't notice until one day, 02:49.000 --> 02:52.000 they walk outside and hey, the windows are above my head. 02:52.000 --> 02:56.000 And what's going on here? 02:56.000 --> 02:59.000 So this is a picture of them actually doing that to one of these buildings. 02:59.000 --> 03:00.000 And I've got to stress this. 03:00.000 --> 03:03.000 This is in higher city blocks the way we envision them now. 03:03.000 --> 03:05.000 The buildings were maybe a little smaller. 03:05.000 --> 03:06.000 Five stories, six stories. 03:06.000 --> 03:09.000 But it's thousands and thousands of pounds. 03:09.000 --> 03:13.000 So if they can do that, there's no reason to think we can't do that 03:13.000 --> 03:15.000 for the digital cities that we live in right now. 03:15.000 --> 03:17.000 And one of those digital cities, 03:17.000 --> 03:19.000 as I think is in desperate need of some jacking up 03:19.000 --> 03:22.000 new infrastructure, is a scientific city. 03:22.000 --> 03:28.000 The tools on which we operate might not enable the future of world, 03:28.000 --> 03:30.000 which we would like to see when this open, 03:30.000 --> 03:32.000 inclusive and accessible. 03:32.000 --> 03:36.000 So maybe it's time we raise all the research we're doing. 03:36.000 --> 03:38.000 Let it still continue. 03:38.000 --> 03:42.000 But while it's continuing, build some new stuff under it. 03:42.000 --> 03:44.000 And I think let's show off hands, 03:44.000 --> 03:48.000 who's in like a working group or an interest group that's related to reproducibility 03:48.000 --> 03:54.000 or any aspect of science, the scientific process. 03:54.000 --> 03:55.000 Everyone. 03:55.000 --> 03:57.000 So why hasn't this been fixed yet? 03:57.000 --> 03:59.000 Like we're all talking about it. 03:59.000 --> 04:01.000 We got to do it. 04:01.000 --> 04:05.000 So me and some friends came up with the potential problem 04:05.000 --> 04:07.000 is that we're all talking about it. 04:07.000 --> 04:11.000 And maybe it's because a lot of us are from a research background 04:11.000 --> 04:15.000 and we like to look into the problem and assess the problem 04:15.000 --> 04:17.000 and say what the problem is and then suggest a solution. 04:17.000 --> 04:19.000 And that's kind of where we stop. 04:19.000 --> 04:24.000 Well, there's another group of society that like to start exactly where that stops. 04:24.000 --> 04:29.000 They like to start with a potential solution and build it out and then see what happens 04:29.000 --> 04:31.000 and they like to build very, very quickly. 04:31.000 --> 04:37.000 So what we created an organization that tries to co-locate these two groups of people, 04:37.000 --> 04:39.000 researchers and technologists. 04:39.000 --> 04:42.000 And the crazy reality is there's a bunch of technologists that are already building 04:42.000 --> 04:46.000 scientific infrastructure without having ever spoken to a researcher. 04:46.000 --> 04:49.000 They're just like, yeah, this is what I think they need and they start building something 04:49.000 --> 04:52.000 and then it's never used because they built the wrong thing. 04:52.000 --> 04:55.000 If only they were in the same room or if there's research there saying, 04:55.000 --> 04:57.000 could you please build this for me? 04:57.000 --> 04:58.000 Could you please build that for me? 04:58.000 --> 05:03.000 And it turns out when we started doing this, people started developing stuff 05:03.000 --> 05:04.000 very quickly. 05:04.000 --> 05:08.000 Because again, the current system doesn't necessarily work really well. 05:08.000 --> 05:11.000 So it's not a big challenge to start building this stuff. 05:11.000 --> 05:15.000 The actual building is a challenge but to identify what to build is not terribly difficult. 05:15.000 --> 05:21.000 So I'm going to go through a couple of things that we're building very quickly. 05:21.000 --> 05:27.000 And then I would really like to have a conversation about what folks think is necessary 05:27.000 --> 05:34.000 to build a better sewer system so we stop dying to cholera or malaria. 05:34.000 --> 05:39.000 All right, so public identification, DOIs. 05:39.000 --> 05:40.000 We all know them. 05:40.000 --> 05:43.000 We all have a love hate relationship with them, I imagine. 05:43.000 --> 05:45.000 There are some problems with them. 05:45.000 --> 05:48.000 Link rot, content drift, things like that. 05:48.000 --> 05:51.000 The way they're maintained, the way they scale. 05:51.000 --> 05:55.000 They're built for manuscripts for PDFs, which were developed in the early 90s 05:55.000 --> 05:58.000 if I remember correctly, and it's currently 2025. 05:58.000 --> 06:03.000 So when we're now seeing a lot of data and a lot of code that needs to get cited, 06:03.000 --> 06:06.000 DOIs probably is not the best way to do all of that. 06:06.000 --> 06:10.000 You shouldn't need to take your GitHub repo and go put it on Zenodo to get a DOI. 06:10.000 --> 06:15.000 And then try, yes, I'm working on a project that's trying to connect research software 06:15.000 --> 06:17.000 with the papers that use that research software. 06:17.000 --> 06:22.000 And so we scrape repos for DOIs, and then go on Open Alex and try to determine which papers. 06:22.000 --> 06:23.000 It's a mess. 06:23.000 --> 06:28.000 Even if you have the DOI in the repo, there's just like not a practical solution. 06:28.000 --> 06:30.000 So a new identifier needs to be made. 06:30.000 --> 06:33.000 There are a lot of different solutions out there. 06:33.000 --> 06:35.000 I'm familiar with one called RAIDs. 06:35.000 --> 06:39.000 Well, we built our called DPIDs decentralized persistent identifiers. 06:39.000 --> 06:46.000 They scale really well, and the really great thing is you can assign them to any artifact of research. 06:46.000 --> 06:53.000 And then have kind of a top level DPID that talks about the entire research object. 06:53.000 --> 06:56.000 And then within that object you have the granular DPIDs. 06:56.000 --> 06:58.000 If you just want to cite the data, if you just want to cite the code, 06:58.000 --> 07:02.000 if you just want to cite one function within the data, one line within that function, 07:02.000 --> 07:03.000 you can do that. 07:03.000 --> 07:06.000 If you want to cite a comment that someone left, you can cite that comment, 07:06.000 --> 07:08.000 because we all know research is a conversation. 07:08.000 --> 07:09.000 Not an output. 07:09.000 --> 07:11.000 They're fantastic. 07:11.000 --> 07:12.000 And they're not the only ones out there. 07:12.000 --> 07:13.000 I want to stress that. 07:13.000 --> 07:17.000 But this resulted the group that's building this. 07:17.000 --> 07:19.000 I want to stress really quick. 07:19.000 --> 07:22.000 Me and my friends who started this nonprofit, we are facilitators. 07:22.000 --> 07:24.000 We do not build the stuff ourselves. 07:24.000 --> 07:29.000 We help translate language because there is a language barrier between researchers and technologists. 07:29.000 --> 07:31.000 And we help move stuff forward. 07:31.000 --> 07:33.000 So the people who are building this, the team behind it, 07:33.000 --> 07:36.000 is led by a researcher out of view. 07:36.000 --> 07:38.000 I can't pronounce it, but it's in Amsterdam. 07:38.000 --> 07:41.000 Fantastic economist. 07:41.000 --> 07:44.000 And he's identified the problem. 07:44.000 --> 07:45.000 Found some funding. 07:45.000 --> 07:47.000 Found some developers who would help build this thing. 07:47.000 --> 07:50.000 And in two years, this now exists. 07:50.000 --> 07:55.000 There is also infrastructure that lets people publish everything. 07:55.000 --> 07:57.000 Everything. 07:57.000 --> 07:58.000 Everything. 07:58.000 --> 07:59.000 It's overwhelming. 07:59.000 --> 08:00.000 It's a lot of spam. 08:00.000 --> 08:02.000 But we'll get to that in a second. 08:02.000 --> 08:05.000 So there is no gated publishing model anymore. 08:05.000 --> 08:09.000 If you do research at any level, you don't need to publish the nature. 08:09.000 --> 08:13.000 You don't need to go through the traditional publishing route. 08:13.000 --> 08:15.000 You just put it out there. 08:15.000 --> 08:17.000 You don't even need to get peer review. 08:17.000 --> 08:19.000 The stuff that your life is doing is amazing. 08:19.000 --> 08:21.000 And they lost their impact. 08:21.000 --> 08:23.000 Different talk. 08:23.000 --> 08:27.000 So now that technology exists to make publishing accessible. 08:27.000 --> 08:28.000 Discover something. 08:28.000 --> 08:29.000 Get it out there. 08:29.000 --> 08:31.000 Let's see what happens after that. 08:31.000 --> 08:33.000 Even if it's garbage. 08:33.000 --> 08:35.000 Maybe it won't be garbage in 50 years. 08:35.000 --> 08:37.000 And someone needs to be able to access it. 08:37.000 --> 08:40.000 So I already talked about the granular citation. 08:40.000 --> 08:43.000 That it happens when you can publish everything with this new type of identifier. 08:43.000 --> 08:45.000 That lets you identify everything. 08:45.000 --> 08:46.000 You can cite everything. 08:46.000 --> 08:47.000 Makes it really simple. 08:47.000 --> 08:49.000 Sometimes you don't want to cite the entire manuscript. 08:49.000 --> 08:51.000 Because that's a full PDF. 08:51.000 --> 08:52.000 It's really long. 08:52.000 --> 08:53.000 Maybe we shouldn't use PDF anymore. 08:53.000 --> 08:55.000 But again, another talk. 08:55.000 --> 08:56.000 Automated metadata. 08:56.000 --> 09:00.000 When you're publishing everything, it gives other tools. 09:00.000 --> 09:09.000 More data on which we can build tools, which can inform other tools that can automate the metadata population process. 09:09.000 --> 09:16.000 That would be great because I know that no one likes putting in the metadata that makes my life when I'm building that project. 09:16.000 --> 09:17.000 So much easier. 09:17.000 --> 09:22.000 If I know what your software is used for, I can put it in my another other tool. 09:22.000 --> 09:26.000 In order to know that, you have to put the proper metadata behind your software. 09:26.000 --> 09:28.000 And most people don't. 09:29.000 --> 09:31.000 It's not fun. 09:31.000 --> 09:32.000 Assessment tools. 09:32.000 --> 09:36.000 Okay, so if you're publishing everything, literally everything. 09:36.000 --> 09:38.000 How can we determine what is the garbage? 09:38.000 --> 09:40.000 What is that one sentence that someone just published? 09:40.000 --> 09:43.000 And what is an actual robust piece of research? 09:43.000 --> 09:46.000 Well, you need a curation layer. 09:46.000 --> 09:50.000 Part of that curation layer is going to be automated assessment tools. 09:50.000 --> 09:55.000 That look for key identifiers of, hey, this is robust research. 09:55.000 --> 10:05.000 I had methodology that is validated or verified by a bunch of people who are trusted in perhaps this thing that we might call a web of trust. 10:05.000 --> 10:13.000 And because of that, we can elevate it to a layer where we can bring people into the equation and have them curate it from there. 10:13.000 --> 10:23.000 And that those people come in with the community peer review, where the tools that we're helping build. 10:23.000 --> 10:30.000 I love to bring the curation power or the journal power back to scientific communities. 10:30.000 --> 10:40.000 So you can attest to the fact that a piece of research has opened data or even has data or has it's code available. 10:40.000 --> 10:42.000 Things like that. 10:42.000 --> 10:49.000 And then those attestations can be utilized again by the assessment tools to do that first pass over that big, 10:49.000 --> 10:56.000 quite a mile of nonsense that is inevitably going to exist on an open repository. 10:56.000 --> 11:06.000 In the same vein, these three tools, essentially, automated data assessment tools and community peer review infrastructure, 11:06.000 --> 11:09.000 enable attestation containers for open source. 11:09.000 --> 11:16.000 So if your repository is critical to climate research, which is one of the great conversations I was having earlier today, that kept me away from slides. 11:17.000 --> 11:21.000 You can say, you can claim that, hey, my research is critical. 11:21.000 --> 11:24.000 Or my software is critical to the climate research. 11:24.000 --> 11:27.000 And then people can come in and attest simply. 11:27.000 --> 11:28.000 Yes, no. 11:28.000 --> 11:35.000 And the person who says yes and the person who says no, they have a record behind them that says, you should trust this person who said yes. 11:35.000 --> 11:39.000 Or maybe you should wait for someone who's more trusted to say yes to this. 11:39.000 --> 11:43.000 If you're going to say distribute funds to important climate research software. 11:43.000 --> 11:52.000 And then the last thing that we're working together on is a conference that is built entirely on this new infrastructure. 11:52.000 --> 12:02.000 So the publication submissions, the peer review, the acceptance, the attestations, all of it exists in one event. 12:02.000 --> 12:04.000 We call it the Institute of Open Science Practices. 12:04.000 --> 12:07.000 Our first one is in Denver at the end of February. 12:07.000 --> 12:10.000 And we had 13, I think submission so far. 12:10.000 --> 12:12.000 And they went through the process using some of these tools. 12:12.000 --> 12:14.000 And the researchers are starting to use some of these tools. 12:14.000 --> 12:18.000 And they're giving feedback and saying, please don't build this anymore. 12:18.000 --> 12:19.000 We don't need it. 12:19.000 --> 12:20.000 Or this is fantastic. 12:20.000 --> 12:21.000 Please keep building it. 12:21.000 --> 12:23.000 And more often it's the latter. 12:23.000 --> 12:28.000 Because again, the whole point is when these tools were started to be built, a researcher was the one who started it. 12:28.000 --> 12:30.000 It wasn't someone else. 12:30.000 --> 12:33.000 So someone who needed a solution to a problem. 12:33.000 --> 12:36.000 And then technologists came along and took it from there. 12:36.000 --> 12:44.000 So if we're going to abstract this a little more, this is what we're trying to avoid. 12:44.000 --> 12:56.000 So what the, the iOS, which is the org, is working on doing is merging academia with open source tech communities and local communities. 12:56.000 --> 13:02.000 Because at the current rate, we're going to end up with an ecosystem where we just have rebuilt siloed institutions, 13:02.000 --> 13:04.000 where we don't talk to local communities. 13:04.000 --> 13:06.000 We don't talk, we just start developing stuff that we like. 13:06.000 --> 13:07.000 That's kind of what open source is. 13:07.000 --> 13:08.000 It's beautiful. 13:08.000 --> 13:11.000 But there is a risk that we become an industrialized system of open source. 13:11.000 --> 13:14.000 Where we, again, are not looking for the right purposes. 13:14.000 --> 13:19.000 So what we're trying to do is eventually merge all of these things together. 13:19.000 --> 13:21.000 And I'm not great at slides. 13:21.000 --> 13:24.000 So this is supposed to all, like, 13:24.000 --> 13:28.000 and great shiny light, you know, save your sort of stuff. 13:28.000 --> 13:29.000 But that's the idea. 13:29.000 --> 13:34.000 Because it really, the software that is built by the people here is used by everyone. 13:34.000 --> 13:36.000 It's a public good. 13:36.000 --> 13:42.000 It is the public is the core benefactor of everything that's built in technology. 13:42.000 --> 13:45.000 And the public has to live with it, whether they like it or not. 13:45.000 --> 13:48.000 So the public should be in the room when it comes to building technology. 13:48.000 --> 13:52.000 And what siloed as to saying is, well, researchers should also be in the room when building. 13:52.000 --> 13:56.000 Research technology because of the ones that are going to use it. 13:56.000 --> 14:00.000 The ones that need it, the ones that know the problem so intimately. 14:00.000 --> 14:06.000 So that's largely all I've got for you. 14:06.000 --> 14:10.000 Happy to entertain questions or have a conversation. 14:10.000 --> 14:13.000 Or anything for the many comments? 14:13.000 --> 14:17.000 Yeah. 14:17.000 --> 14:18.000 Hello. 14:18.000 --> 14:21.000 I'm working, actually, for the software I teach, 14:22.000 --> 14:31.000 which is one, we believe we are building one of the pillars of what you're talking about. 14:31.000 --> 14:34.000 We're keeping all the software safe forever. 14:34.000 --> 14:36.000 Software, software, software, software server. 14:36.000 --> 14:41.000 All the software, software, set table easily for the long term, 14:41.000 --> 14:48.000 which are a bunch of properties that you will require you to retire in BSArea. 14:48.000 --> 14:52.000 And within we are working in life, for example, 14:52.000 --> 14:56.000 so that the other software they have in our archive. 14:56.000 --> 15:00.000 So, I mean, we should talk a little bit. 15:00.000 --> 15:01.000 Yeah, absolutely. 15:01.000 --> 15:05.000 I don't know if you're aware of the project, you open project like so far. 15:05.000 --> 15:15.000 So far, I took project, just handling just addressing several aspects of what you are in these slides. 15:15.000 --> 15:18.000 So, yeah, absolutely. 15:18.000 --> 15:21.000 And this is a crazy thing we're discovering too. 15:21.000 --> 15:26.000 A lot of people are building these repeated requests. 15:26.000 --> 15:31.000 He's also building some of this technology. 15:31.000 --> 15:38.000 A lot of, what something we're finding is a lot of people are building different solutions to different problems. 15:38.000 --> 15:42.000 And there's a little awareness of who else is building something. 15:42.000 --> 15:45.000 So, as we start doing these workshops, people come up and be like, oh, can we can walk? 15:45.000 --> 15:47.000 We do this because we're also doing it. 15:47.000 --> 15:53.000 And getting everyone in the room to build one final standard, I say, 15:53.000 --> 15:56.000 tongue and cheek. 15:56.000 --> 15:58.000 Oh, yeah. 15:58.000 --> 16:00.000 But that's the idea. 16:00.000 --> 16:03.000 So, we can work together to build a solution that ultimately works. 16:03.000 --> 16:09.000 Because if we go back to this picture, like, this is thousands of people all turning 16:09.000 --> 16:12.000 in a screw at the same time to raise a building. 16:12.000 --> 16:17.000 You can't try to, and they had to go systematically through the city to raise one building at a time. 16:17.000 --> 16:18.000 And I didn't say this. 16:18.000 --> 16:19.000 They didn't break anything. 16:19.000 --> 16:24.000 There was no structural damage done to any of the buildings during all of this. 16:24.000 --> 16:25.000 It's insane. 16:25.000 --> 16:31.000 So, we can't just be over here turning a screw and then someone else is over there going the other way. 16:31.000 --> 16:33.000 And then we got to be in the same room working together building stuff. 16:33.000 --> 16:35.000 And people are very excited to do that. 16:35.000 --> 16:42.000 So, at some point, I suspect the problem here is quite simple to all agree on what we should do. 16:42.000 --> 16:44.000 We're in this kind of example. 16:44.000 --> 16:53.000 The problem we are trying to solve is less easy to describe than agree on on all the aspects. 16:53.000 --> 16:55.000 So, I'll talk about it. 16:55.000 --> 16:59.000 There's just a limitation of this image probably. 16:59.000 --> 17:02.000 It would be interesting to see, because, yeah, 17:02.000 --> 17:05.000 some stuff you just got to build something that works better than the other. 17:05.000 --> 17:08.000 Question over here, and we'll have that. 17:08.000 --> 17:09.000 It was a really great talk. 17:09.000 --> 17:14.000 I just wanted to ask about the Ragniversiteation Identification Introduction. 17:14.000 --> 17:17.000 Since Lanniversite can be pretty, you know, 17:17.000 --> 17:20.000 we can have functions, objects, methods, comments, or something like that, 17:20.000 --> 17:23.000 or you want to say data data in different formats. 17:23.000 --> 17:27.000 So, we have any standards in place for that Ragniversiteation. 17:27.000 --> 17:30.000 We want to be standard agnostic because of XKCD. 17:30.000 --> 17:34.000 So, it's about building that infrastructure. 17:34.000 --> 17:40.000 Are there any standards for the Ragniversiteation aspect, the tech they were building? 17:40.000 --> 17:47.000 No, the idea is to build the sewer through which the mess can flow, 17:47.000 --> 17:51.000 and not necessarily build a treatment plant or anything like that. 17:51.000 --> 17:57.000 We just want to build the pipes and tubes that host the data and everything like that. 18:00.000 --> 18:05.000 So, I was also going to mention sulfur heritage as kind of a net first work, 18:05.000 --> 18:08.000 but it kind of made a bigger question. 18:08.000 --> 18:13.000 When you have a list of things that you are trying to put together, 18:13.000 --> 18:16.000 one thing. 18:16.000 --> 18:21.000 There's often a choice between doing things that's kind of everything is integrated into one thing, 18:21.000 --> 18:24.000 versus having lots of little pieces that open together. 18:24.000 --> 18:27.000 And in some ways, it's been sounded to me like, 18:27.000 --> 18:31.000 you're building all the pieces in or they all kept together, 18:31.000 --> 18:34.000 as opposed to trying to find solutions and work for different pieces 18:34.000 --> 18:36.000 that you can bring together where you're not, 18:36.000 --> 18:38.000 or other people responsible for some of them. 18:38.000 --> 18:41.000 So, I guess I'm just wondering kind of about that, 18:41.000 --> 18:46.000 as a way of creating something that's kind of centralized versus decentralized approach, 18:46.000 --> 18:51.000 which seems a little bit of a waste of kind of what your Ragniversite is. 18:51.000 --> 18:56.000 Yeah, so, the centralized versus centralized, 18:56.000 --> 19:00.000 it seems like there's a lot of stuff that is needs to be built from the ground up, 19:00.000 --> 19:04.000 and a lot of stuff that could just mean an algorithmation of a lot of things that already exist, 19:04.000 --> 19:07.000 and what's that sort of how are you taking that approach. 19:07.000 --> 19:10.000 So, things like a repository of knowledge, 19:10.000 --> 19:14.000 having multiple different databases doesn't seem practical, 19:14.000 --> 19:20.000 so there should be a type of database or repository that just has all of research. 19:20.000 --> 19:24.000 That seems practical to me, but at the same time that practical, 19:24.000 --> 19:27.000 that's quite a challenge, but it seems to be working so far. 19:27.000 --> 19:31.000 The, which one, assessment tools, automated assessment tools, 19:31.000 --> 19:35.000 we're working with a group called Koara E-Rip to build this, 19:35.000 --> 19:40.000 and that is likely going to be an algorithmation of a lot of assessment tools that already exist, 19:40.000 --> 19:42.000 just put together in a simple application, 19:42.000 --> 19:43.000 because of the same problem before, 19:43.000 --> 19:45.000 a lot of people have built parts of this, 19:45.000 --> 19:48.000 but they exist, spread out all over the place, 19:48.000 --> 19:50.000 so we just need to bring them together. 19:50.000 --> 19:52.000 So, there's both. 19:52.000 --> 19:53.000 I think. 19:53.000 --> 19:54.000 Yeah. 19:54.000 --> 19:59.000 On this slide, actually, do you have something around permission working? 19:59.000 --> 20:00.000 Yeah. 20:00.000 --> 20:03.000 And obviously, the permission system right now has, 20:03.000 --> 20:06.000 suffers from lots of bad stuff, 20:06.000 --> 20:09.000 and doesn't protect your paper instruments. 20:09.000 --> 20:10.000 Yep. 20:10.000 --> 20:16.000 But, for instance, with paper meals or when I generated AI articles, 20:16.000 --> 20:20.000 that's all about stuff, I can see how with this system, 20:20.000 --> 20:24.000 it's not going to be even bigger problem. 20:24.000 --> 20:31.000 Do you have ideas on how to separate meaningful science from everything else? 20:31.000 --> 20:35.000 Do I have ideas on how to separate meaningful science from everything else 20:35.000 --> 20:37.000 as it relates to the published everything layer? 20:37.000 --> 20:39.000 What are you doing for dinner? 20:39.000 --> 20:42.000 It's a very long conversation. 20:43.000 --> 20:45.000 But, yes, there are people trying to solve this problem. 20:45.000 --> 20:48.000 And the idea is as soon as you put a gate on something, 20:48.000 --> 20:50.000 you've kind of blocked it off. 20:50.000 --> 20:52.000 Like that gate will get abused eventually. 20:52.000 --> 20:54.000 So, we want to build a gate-less system, 20:54.000 --> 20:57.000 and then figure out how to deal with the mess afterwards. 20:57.000 --> 20:59.000 And there are ways. 20:59.000 --> 21:01.000 We think. 21:01.000 --> 21:05.000 One of combining some of their community elevation tools work. 21:05.000 --> 21:11.000 For example, it's fairly easy to make a website at this point, 21:11.000 --> 21:14.000 but we all know the big popular good websites. 21:14.000 --> 21:16.000 Why do we know that? 21:16.000 --> 21:20.000 It just becomes, there are people who tell us what website to go to 21:20.000 --> 21:23.000 because they respect that website and we respect them. 21:23.000 --> 21:24.000 So we go to that website. 21:24.000 --> 21:26.000 That sort of thing can be built out technically. 21:26.000 --> 21:29.000 But that's a very bad analogy at the same time, 21:29.000 --> 21:31.000 because it's a very complex problem. 21:31.000 --> 21:33.000 Over there. 21:42.000 --> 21:46.000 Oh, he totally shouldn't. 21:46.000 --> 21:55.000 So, why do DPI-D is, why are they better than DOS? 21:55.000 --> 21:58.000 So, DOS have a lot of legacy to them. 21:58.000 --> 22:01.000 They are critical to the advancement of a career research 22:01.000 --> 22:02.000 right now. 22:02.000 --> 22:04.000 So there's no reason to stop using them. 22:04.000 --> 22:08.000 DPI-D is scale much better than DOS. 22:08.000 --> 22:13.000 We can produce practically an infinite amount of DPI-D is 22:13.000 --> 22:16.000 for next to zero cost, and we is anyone. 22:16.000 --> 22:21.000 You don't need permission to produce a DPI or anything like that. 22:21.000 --> 22:25.000 You can have a nested DPI tree. 22:25.000 --> 22:28.000 So you have that DPI of a full research object that also within 22:28.000 --> 22:32.000 it contains a bunch of DPI-Ds with a full research object. 22:32.000 --> 22:36.000 Then you have a bunch of DPI-Ds that exist for every granular 22:36.000 --> 22:37.000 artifact under that. 22:37.000 --> 22:43.000 Once a DPI-D is assigned to a digital artifact that's published on this digital repository, 22:43.000 --> 22:47.000 it will always resolve to that digital artifact no matter what. 22:47.000 --> 22:51.000 You will never get a 404 assuming that someone is still hosting that data somewhere. 22:51.000 --> 22:56.000 You will never get a 404 and you will never get something completely unrelated to that, 22:56.000 --> 22:58.000 which is the content drift problem. 22:58.000 --> 23:02.000 There's a couple more, but if you want to get into the technicals, 23:02.000 --> 23:04.000 I can connect you to the people who are building this. 23:04.000 --> 23:08.000 I'm a humble facilitator, and they can explain it much more than I do. 23:08.000 --> 23:12.000 Though I do pick up a lot by being in the same room. 23:12.000 --> 23:14.000 That's the only thing. 23:14.000 --> 23:18.000 Happy to connect. 23:18.000 --> 23:20.000 Happy to connect. 23:20.000 --> 23:21.000 Yeah. 23:21.000 --> 23:22.000 Thank you.