WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:13.000 Thank you all very much, first of all, to the presenters who have already spoken for your presentations. 00:13.000 --> 00:15.000 Thank you, Marcel, for also being here. 00:15.000 --> 00:19.000 I'll let you quickly introduce yourself, yes, because you don't have a talk. 00:19.000 --> 00:26.000 But this is the panel, how is it called, a European strategy for technological sovereignty. 00:26.000 --> 00:30.000 I think that's about what I wrote into the proposal, at least. 00:30.000 --> 00:37.000 Yeah, I'll just hand the microphone quickly to Marcel, because he didn't have the opportunity of introducing himself. 00:37.000 --> 00:40.000 Thank you, Sebastian. Thank you for the invitation. 00:40.000 --> 00:43.000 For this fantastic session. 00:43.000 --> 00:45.000 My name is Marcel Kolaya. 00:45.000 --> 00:47.000 I should pick up, I guess. 00:47.000 --> 00:49.000 My name is Marcel Kolaya. 00:49.000 --> 01:02.000 I am an European policy and advocacy director at Access Now, which is an organization that defends and extends digital rights for people and communities at risk. 01:02.000 --> 01:10.000 But I am here more, I think, rather in the capacity, more private one from my previous life. 01:10.000 --> 01:13.000 Which is when I was a member of the European Parliament. 01:13.000 --> 01:22.000 And I focused on the digital agenda of the European Union, including, of course, free and open source software, 01:22.000 --> 01:30.000 because also myself, a free and open source software, fan from my studies, times already. 01:30.000 --> 01:35.000 I'm a computer scientist by training, so that's my background. 01:35.000 --> 01:37.000 Thank you so much, Marcel. 01:37.000 --> 01:41.000 The leading question that I've sent to Marcel, so I'm sorry. 01:41.000 --> 01:46.000 The rest of the panel is a bit in disadvantage when it comes to that. 01:46.000 --> 01:51.000 But I also try to introduce that at the beginning of the session. 01:51.000 --> 01:58.000 We're facing international competition in Europe and at the same time, Europe and all of us, 01:58.000 --> 02:05.000 we depend so much on key digital services and products to be provided from outside the EU. 02:05.000 --> 02:10.000 So, do you think open source can help reduce these dependencies? 02:10.000 --> 02:16.000 Who'd I start with? Maybe from the hardware perspective, because that's one that we don't hear too much. 02:16.000 --> 02:18.000 Yes, thank you. 02:18.000 --> 02:27.000 And so, for those of you who missed my presentation, I was making the point that, by leveraging open source, 02:27.000 --> 02:33.000 not only open source instruction sets, like what you find in RIS5, but open source core designs, 02:33.000 --> 02:38.000 or SLC design system on the chip designs that are available from the open hardware foundation, 02:38.000 --> 02:41.000 that you can make up at least part of that gap. 02:41.000 --> 02:46.000 And the reason for that is, of course, that general compute is now a commodity. 02:46.000 --> 02:50.000 And this means by leveraging those existing building blocks, 02:50.000 --> 02:59.000 then you can build something more advanced on the top and so innovate and catch up and even overtake those external forces. 02:59.000 --> 03:03.000 Of course, this requires proper software support at the same time. 03:03.000 --> 03:07.000 So, open hardware foundation, that's not something I covered in the talk, 03:07.000 --> 03:11.000 but has a complete software task group that will provide the compilers, 03:11.000 --> 03:15.000 linkers, everything that you need to leverage those, and then there's the broader eclipse, 03:15.000 --> 03:22.000 ecosystem, of course, with many European companies in there that produce software that can be leveraged for embedded, 03:22.000 --> 03:26.000 for IoT, for SDV and so many other things. 03:30.000 --> 03:36.000 Yeah, I'm very happy with this question, because I've been thinking about this for a long long time, 03:36.000 --> 03:46.000 and so as we are now basically having 17 or 18x and the rectives, regulating data, data space, cloud edge, chips, AI, 03:46.000 --> 03:52.000 sort of, I think the one thing that we don't regulate and the wallet, of course, are important. 03:52.000 --> 03:55.000 The one thing that we don't regulate is the phone. 03:56.000 --> 04:01.000 So, I want to European phone, 500 million so on European phone. 04:01.000 --> 04:06.000 We can make it 6G because 6G is coming in 2030. 04:06.000 --> 04:12.000 We can have our edge as cloud, so we just run everything on the local cloud, 04:12.000 --> 04:15.000 because the cloud is the edge of 500 million phones. 04:15.000 --> 04:24.000 We embed the wallet in our own hardware, which we fully control our supply chain, 04:24.000 --> 04:27.000 which we don't, which we don't do not now. 04:27.000 --> 04:33.000 And we're also lowering cryptographic credentials because we are now, 04:33.000 --> 04:40.000 because basically, Apple and Google are talking about how they would like to see the wallet being 04:40.000 --> 04:44.000 cryptographically addressed. 04:44.000 --> 04:46.000 To me, that makes no sense. 04:46.000 --> 04:50.000 So, if you regulate all the things above, and you forget to regulate, 04:50.000 --> 04:53.000 basically, the only thing you have to regulate, which is the phone, 04:53.000 --> 04:56.000 which you can control what goes in, what goes out, 04:56.000 --> 05:00.000 the simple Steve Jobs, he did it with the iPhone. 05:00.000 --> 05:02.000 I think that's the way to go forward. 05:02.000 --> 05:08.000 We can then embed not only media wisdom, so we can give that phone a different look for 12 year olds 05:08.000 --> 05:10.000 and 16 year olds. 05:10.000 --> 05:14.000 We can stop talking about negotiating things. 05:14.000 --> 05:18.000 I think I remember a three, three months ago from Breton, 05:18.000 --> 05:22.000 where he was very happy that he got one feature from TikTok removed, 05:22.000 --> 05:27.000 which I thought was a bit of doing it to be happy about really sort of, 05:27.000 --> 05:29.000 if that's our agency. 05:29.000 --> 05:34.000 So our agency should go deeper, it should be a phone, 500 million phone. 05:34.000 --> 05:41.000 Where we implement our value system, where we don't try to negotiate 15 regulations 05:41.000 --> 05:45.000 with 100 people supplying that. 05:45.000 --> 05:49.000 And I think the idea is ripe to lend. 05:49.000 --> 05:55.000 Marcel, do we already have a European phone? 05:55.000 --> 05:58.000 How can we get one? 05:58.000 --> 06:01.000 That's a good question. 06:01.000 --> 06:05.000 Maybe I will take it in a bit broader way, 06:05.000 --> 06:10.000 because I got really inspired by all these presentations that we have here. 06:10.000 --> 06:15.000 We have listened to today and that we have seen very interesting examples 06:15.000 --> 06:18.000 about how we can actually catch up. 06:18.000 --> 06:26.000 And I really liked how we could look into also the past 06:26.000 --> 06:29.000 where Europe missed the train already in the 60s. 06:29.000 --> 06:32.000 I think it was the day in the 60s. 06:32.000 --> 06:37.000 And now what are we going to do to catch up now? 06:37.000 --> 06:43.000 And if we speak about open source, 06:43.000 --> 06:46.000 and we speak about digital sovereignty, or text sovereignty, 06:46.000 --> 06:49.000 which is the topic of this panel, 06:49.000 --> 06:56.000 then the main question is, what a digital sovereignty is, 06:56.000 --> 07:01.000 because different people will tell you different things about what they think it is, 07:01.000 --> 07:05.000 and therefore they have different solutions on how to achieve it. 07:05.000 --> 07:12.000 What I have been saying already from the beginning when this type of code 07:12.000 --> 07:17.000 word begins spreading in the Brussels bubble was, 07:17.000 --> 07:23.000 well, I want digital sovereignty through collaboration. 07:23.000 --> 07:28.000 And I'm now trying to go back to the original question. 07:28.000 --> 07:30.000 I'm not trying to escape. 07:30.000 --> 07:33.000 And that I think is kind of the solution. 07:33.000 --> 07:38.000 And to also tight back to what we have seen in the presentations. 07:38.000 --> 07:42.000 If we use open technologies, 07:42.000 --> 07:48.000 then we can actually leverage this advantage of collaboration, 07:48.000 --> 07:53.000 and we can actually leapfrog to today, 07:53.000 --> 07:56.000 and by using open technologies, 07:56.000 --> 08:01.000 yes, we can probably at some point also have a European phone, 08:01.000 --> 08:06.000 because to catch up with building all these chip makers here 08:06.000 --> 08:10.000 in Europe and trying to agree on the instruction sets 08:10.000 --> 08:12.000 between the German one and French one, 08:12.000 --> 08:14.000 as we heard in the presentation, 08:14.000 --> 08:17.000 it's probably going to be very difficult. 08:17.000 --> 08:22.000 So using more open source, both in hardware and software, 08:22.000 --> 08:26.000 I think is a way forward, and telephone, 08:26.000 --> 08:29.000 I think is just one of the examples. 08:29.000 --> 08:34.000 It's not like something that is so specific 08:34.000 --> 08:39.000 that it should work differently than in any other areas. 08:39.000 --> 08:42.000 No, but just one quick, very quickly. 08:42.000 --> 08:45.000 I think, let's say, sovereignty is the agency 08:45.000 --> 08:47.000 to implement your value system. 08:47.000 --> 08:49.000 That to me is sovereignty. 08:49.000 --> 08:54.000 And so you need to implement Europe as a 500 million zone. 08:54.000 --> 08:57.000 We should be able to implement our value system. 08:58.000 --> 09:01.000 We have all the X, so instead of trying to ask others, 09:01.000 --> 09:03.000 please comply with these X, 09:03.000 --> 09:06.000 and have compliance and fines as the only tools. 09:06.000 --> 09:09.000 I think time is ripe too, basically, 09:09.000 --> 09:10.000 because we have the chips. 09:10.000 --> 09:11.000 We have the A's and our chips. 09:11.000 --> 09:13.000 We can run AI off the chips. 09:13.000 --> 09:15.000 We can run operating systems from the chips. 09:15.000 --> 09:21.000 We have a full blown 1500 NG high open source project zone, 09:21.000 --> 09:23.000 in which we have our own search systems. 09:23.000 --> 09:28.000 I mean, friends, searching, shopping is not rocket science, 09:28.000 --> 09:29.000 right? 09:29.000 --> 09:32.000 It's simply implementing some database structures. 09:32.000 --> 09:35.000 So, yes, it should never have come this far. 09:35.000 --> 09:38.000 It has come this far now, and now we should find, 09:38.000 --> 09:41.000 we should, I think, try to get to the one level, 09:41.000 --> 09:43.000 which we can build agency, 09:43.000 --> 09:44.000 and that's on this phone. 09:44.000 --> 09:52.000 And the horizon is 60 phone, I think, is very logical. 09:53.000 --> 09:56.000 And one thing worked remembering, 09:56.000 --> 09:59.000 if you think this is not possible, remember Nokia. 09:59.000 --> 10:02.000 Europe was leading in the past in that domain, 10:02.000 --> 10:04.000 and can get back leadership again. 10:04.000 --> 10:08.000 Yes, and Nokia is leading the 60 work program 10:08.000 --> 10:10.000 at the moment, also, for the commission. 10:10.000 --> 10:12.000 So, Nokia and everything. 10:15.000 --> 10:18.000 And maybe to add something on a more fundamental level, 10:18.000 --> 10:20.000 like stepping away again from the concrete example 10:20.000 --> 10:22.000 we've been talking about. 10:22.000 --> 10:26.000 I think open source itself is, you know, 10:26.000 --> 10:28.000 how to say that it just is, 10:28.000 --> 10:31.000 like we know the terms of using it, 10:31.000 --> 10:33.000 and honestly, the open source community, 10:33.000 --> 10:35.000 as we can see on events like this, 10:35.000 --> 10:38.000 it's hugely driven by Europeans already. 10:38.000 --> 10:40.000 So, just by adopting open source, 10:40.000 --> 10:43.000 we have so much talent in Europe, 10:43.000 --> 10:45.000 that is driving a lot of these softwares, 10:45.000 --> 10:48.000 so just adopting open source naturally gets us, 10:48.000 --> 10:51.000 you know, into clear terms of what software usage is, 10:51.000 --> 10:53.000 or how we can modify it, 10:53.000 --> 10:55.000 and then, you know, 10:55.000 --> 10:57.000 move on if we have to. 10:57.000 --> 10:59.000 So, yeah. 11:00.000 --> 11:02.000 Thank you very much. 11:02.000 --> 11:05.000 Maybe if I can stay with you too, 11:05.000 --> 11:09.000 for a moment, you were saying that, 11:09.000 --> 11:11.000 because, sorry, 11:11.000 --> 11:14.000 but the key word that I heard was Nokia, 11:14.000 --> 11:18.000 and I don't think that phones is now really the, 11:18.000 --> 11:21.000 the type of work that, 11:21.000 --> 11:24.000 that earns them at rather standards and patterns, 11:24.000 --> 11:27.000 so I got to the idea of asking you, 11:27.000 --> 11:30.000 because it was saying that a lot of future work 11:30.000 --> 11:33.000 will require standardization to also come in, 11:33.000 --> 11:37.000 what do open source projects need in order to be included 11:37.000 --> 11:39.000 under standardization, 11:39.000 --> 11:42.000 or, I mean, a lot of the open source software 11:42.000 --> 11:46.000 is essentially already informal standard implementations. 11:46.000 --> 11:48.000 From your perspective, 11:48.000 --> 11:49.000 what would you say, 11:49.000 --> 11:53.000 could you do to make it easier for open source 11:53.000 --> 11:55.000 to get into that place, 11:55.000 --> 11:57.000 to either join standardization bodies, 11:57.000 --> 12:01.000 or to be accepted as the informal standards? 12:01.000 --> 12:04.000 Yeah, something. 12:04.000 --> 12:08.000 I mean, just in regards to what we were talking about already, 12:08.000 --> 12:10.000 we try to show a picture, 12:10.000 --> 12:14.000 that there are already standard mechanisms that you can use, 12:14.000 --> 12:17.000 but it's really about how you put those to use. 12:17.000 --> 12:20.000 You need to have a system that encourages that, 12:20.000 --> 12:22.000 that says that there is already the tool 12:22.000 --> 12:24.000 that technology already exists, 12:24.000 --> 12:26.000 but you need to have that support system in place 12:26.000 --> 12:28.000 that says that make this a standardization, 12:28.000 --> 12:32.000 so it can spread and grow itself naturally. 12:32.000 --> 12:35.000 So without that, it's going to be really, really hard. 12:35.000 --> 12:37.000 Even if you have the best tools, 12:37.000 --> 12:39.000 if you don't apply them, 12:39.000 --> 12:42.000 you can't do much without it, really. 12:42.000 --> 12:44.000 And then there's greater engagement 12:44.000 --> 12:46.000 from open source organizations like us 12:46.000 --> 12:48.000 into standardization bodies, 12:48.000 --> 12:49.000 because as a thing, 12:49.000 --> 12:51.000 those two communities were living in parallel 12:51.000 --> 12:55.000 and the traditional model for ISO, I see, 12:55.000 --> 12:57.000 and all of that was selling paper literally. 12:57.000 --> 13:00.000 So you had to buy those very thick 13:00.000 --> 13:04.000 specifications or standards in order to implement them, 13:04.000 --> 13:06.000 and that's what they were doing. 13:06.000 --> 13:10.000 Now there is something at ISOICGTC1, 13:10.000 --> 13:12.000 joint technical committee 1, 13:12.000 --> 13:14.000 that's called the publicly available 13:14.000 --> 13:17.000 specification process, okay, or pass. 13:17.000 --> 13:20.000 And essentially an organization like Eclipse, 13:20.000 --> 13:23.000 and authors can join or obtain special status, 13:23.000 --> 13:27.000 and then we can transpose our open specifications 13:27.000 --> 13:29.000 into international standards, 13:29.000 --> 13:32.000 and we've started doing that at Eclipse, 13:32.000 --> 13:34.000 and authors are so, I wouldn't pretend 13:34.000 --> 13:37.000 that we are unique from that perspective, 13:37.000 --> 13:40.000 but you see slowly those two things melding, 13:40.000 --> 13:42.000 and of course this means that now we have the 13:42.000 --> 13:45.000 asons with various technical committees 13:45.000 --> 13:48.000 that sense and elect from a European perspective, 13:48.000 --> 13:49.000 for example, and all of that. 13:49.000 --> 13:51.000 And so the trick here, 13:51.000 --> 13:54.000 if you are a member of the open source community, 13:54.000 --> 13:57.000 you can join the standardization community too, 13:57.000 --> 13:59.000 and this just means you need to be a member 13:59.000 --> 14:02.000 on a mirror committee in your home country. 14:02.000 --> 14:04.000 I am myself from my country, 14:04.000 --> 14:08.000 and this means then you get to participate, 14:08.000 --> 14:10.000 to have a voice into that. 14:10.000 --> 14:14.000 And so if more people from the open source ecosystem do that, 14:14.000 --> 14:16.000 then we can make our voices heard, 14:16.000 --> 14:19.000 because it's not that old-style standards people don't care 14:19.000 --> 14:20.000 about open source, 14:20.000 --> 14:23.000 but maybe they are not even aware that this is a thing 14:23.000 --> 14:25.000 of how important it is. 14:25.000 --> 14:27.000 If you are in the room with them, 14:27.000 --> 14:29.000 and if you do a part of the work with them, 14:29.000 --> 14:31.000 then of course you can inject this open source 14:31.000 --> 14:34.000 and know how in the process the proceedings. 14:34.000 --> 14:36.000 Yeah, so you are afraid. 14:36.000 --> 14:37.000 Yeah. 14:37.000 --> 14:39.000 You want to ask something? 14:39.000 --> 14:40.000 Yeah. 14:40.000 --> 14:45.000 I think a very important aspect is as well 14:45.000 --> 14:47.000 on the grassroots aspect of it. 14:47.000 --> 14:51.000 The looking at what the tech community in Europe is doing, 14:51.000 --> 14:54.000 what has shown where it has proven itself to be working, 14:54.000 --> 14:56.000 and like we mentioned, for example, 14:56.000 --> 14:59.000 this platform engineering discipline that is basically emerging 14:59.000 --> 15:02.000 within IT organizations and looking at these things, 15:02.000 --> 15:05.000 and then interacting with the communities 15:05.000 --> 15:07.000 with the practitioners of IT, 15:07.000 --> 15:10.000 as I think the important bit where basically you can build, 15:10.000 --> 15:14.000 you know, living standards that interact with these 15:14.000 --> 15:18.000 practitioners, practitioners of what they are doing 15:18.000 --> 15:21.000 and evolving around that. 15:21.000 --> 15:26.000 A colleague of mine always reminds me that I should ask 15:26.000 --> 15:30.000 if you can participate in standardization bodies, 15:30.000 --> 15:32.000 because there are not many people, 15:32.000 --> 15:34.000 I'm sorry, I'm off camera, 15:34.000 --> 15:36.000 but you will know in a second why. 15:36.000 --> 15:40.000 So do participate in standardization bodies if you can. 15:40.000 --> 15:43.000 There are not a lot of people that know what open source is 15:43.000 --> 15:45.000 and how it works in standardization bodies. 15:45.000 --> 15:49.000 So do carry that kind of information into the body's 15:49.000 --> 15:50.000 miracle. 15:50.000 --> 15:53.000 Sorry, but I wasn't going to take audience questions, 15:53.000 --> 15:55.000 but you raise your hand, 15:55.000 --> 15:57.000 specifically on the topics of standards. 15:57.000 --> 15:59.000 I think you have something to say. 15:59.000 --> 16:02.000 I actually don't want to disagree with anything. 16:02.000 --> 16:04.000 I totally agree what you said about the past process. 16:04.000 --> 16:06.000 We're doing the same with the foundation 16:06.000 --> 16:07.000 with open chain and others, 16:07.000 --> 16:10.000 so it's a good way to get open source specifications into 16:10.000 --> 16:12.000 the higher outcomes. 16:12.000 --> 16:14.000 But I would like to challenge to group a little bit 16:14.000 --> 16:17.000 going back to the question you raised, I think, 16:17.000 --> 16:20.000 because let's keep one thing in mind 16:20.000 --> 16:23.000 and that is if we publish open technologies, 16:23.000 --> 16:25.000 they're available to anybody for any purpose. 16:25.000 --> 16:28.000 This doesn't improve our competitiveness as such. 16:28.000 --> 16:30.000 It increases everybody's competitiveness. 16:30.000 --> 16:32.000 So one question I ask if we talk about. 16:32.000 --> 16:35.000 The phone of Europe, the other product is 16:35.000 --> 16:37.000 who is going to build these products? 16:37.000 --> 16:40.000 And if we have companies that emerge in build these products, 16:40.000 --> 16:42.000 how do you make sure they don't get bored 16:42.000 --> 16:44.000 once they're successful by the same people 16:44.000 --> 16:46.000 that are currently dominating the market? 16:47.000 --> 16:51.000 Thanks, I want to answer that question specifically 16:51.000 --> 16:54.000 because I was a member of the European Parliament 16:54.000 --> 16:58.000 and therefore I kind of have sort of a footprint 16:58.000 --> 17:03.000 also on the regulation that I think rightfully 17:03.000 --> 17:06.000 can be bashed, of course. 17:06.000 --> 17:07.000 But there was one point in one of the presentations. 17:08.000 --> 17:10.000 I don't exactly remember who said it, 17:10.000 --> 17:13.000 but we don't necessarily need less regulation. 17:13.000 --> 17:15.000 We need better regulation. 17:15.000 --> 17:20.000 And I need to tell you that it was very often really frustrating 17:20.000 --> 17:25.000 to see that we, as Europe, don't really have a strategy. 17:25.000 --> 17:27.000 That's the major problem. 17:27.000 --> 17:30.000 So I think this whole thing, 17:30.000 --> 17:33.000 and I think it's very important to understand 17:33.000 --> 17:35.000 that's the major problem. 17:35.000 --> 17:40.000 So I think this whole session and this panel discussion 17:40.000 --> 17:43.000 is really on the right topic, 17:43.000 --> 17:45.000 like we really need to have a strategy 17:45.000 --> 17:47.000 because if we don't have one, 17:47.000 --> 17:52.000 then we have various pieces of very contradictory 17:52.000 --> 17:56.000 type of initiatives or regulations 17:56.000 --> 17:59.000 that in the end don't make sense. 17:59.000 --> 18:03.000 If you look at Interoperable Europe webpage 18:03.000 --> 18:05.000 of the European Commission, 18:05.000 --> 18:07.000 you may get the idea that, 18:07.000 --> 18:09.000 well, the Commission actually knows what they are doing. 18:09.000 --> 18:11.000 They know a lot about open source 18:11.000 --> 18:14.000 and true there are people that know a lot about open source 18:14.000 --> 18:15.000 in the European Commission. 18:15.000 --> 18:19.000 But then you look at some other proposals 18:19.000 --> 18:21.000 from the Commission, legislative ones, 18:21.000 --> 18:24.000 some of them were people discussed today in this room 18:24.000 --> 18:26.000 like the Cyber Resilience Act, 18:26.000 --> 18:28.000 the product liability directive, 18:28.000 --> 18:30.000 all of them I worked on, 18:30.000 --> 18:32.000 the last one was not discussed today. 18:32.000 --> 18:34.000 But in all of them, 18:34.000 --> 18:36.000 I had to fight for an exception for open source 18:36.000 --> 18:40.000 because the policy makers didn't understand 18:40.000 --> 18:42.000 what is specific about open source 18:42.000 --> 18:44.000 and what, well, 18:44.000 --> 18:46.000 they don't understand what is upstream and downstream 18:46.000 --> 18:48.000 that's the main problem. 18:48.000 --> 18:52.000 And to explain this to the policy makers 18:52.000 --> 18:53.000 is very difficult. 18:53.000 --> 18:56.000 So I'm really glad that we can have 18:56.000 --> 18:59.000 this session also to motivate a bit, 18:59.000 --> 19:01.000 you know, people to also get in touch, 19:01.000 --> 19:03.000 you know, with the policy makers. 19:03.000 --> 19:05.000 But to your question, 19:05.000 --> 19:06.000 I think we need a strategy, 19:06.000 --> 19:09.000 and I think we need a better policy making, 19:09.000 --> 19:11.000 so we have better regulation. 19:11.000 --> 19:13.000 As a matter of fact, the big tech 19:13.000 --> 19:16.000 is not over-regulated. 19:16.000 --> 19:18.000 It's heavily undregulated. 19:18.000 --> 19:20.000 That's why we have the Digital Markets Act 19:20.000 --> 19:22.000 that tries to fix that, 19:22.000 --> 19:24.000 but also I think it's, 19:24.000 --> 19:26.000 we were not ambitious enough. 19:26.000 --> 19:28.000 I have, for instance, proposed 19:28.000 --> 19:30.000 mandatory interoperability for 19:30.000 --> 19:34.000 a big social networks platforms. 19:34.000 --> 19:36.000 So that the smaller ones, 19:36.000 --> 19:38.000 like master non-for instance, 19:38.000 --> 19:40.000 can become interoperable with. 19:40.000 --> 19:42.000 I have also proposed the chat platform 19:42.000 --> 19:43.000 interoperability, 19:43.000 --> 19:46.000 which fortunately got into the law. 19:46.000 --> 19:49.000 So there may be we can get some movement. 19:49.000 --> 19:52.000 So that this, what that gentleman has had said, 19:52.000 --> 19:54.000 is not happening that basically 19:54.000 --> 19:57.000 startups do not really work well 19:57.000 --> 19:58.000 in Europe, 19:58.000 --> 20:00.000 and they work much better in the US. 20:00.000 --> 20:02.000 We just need better regulation. 20:02.000 --> 20:04.000 We need to incentivize startups. 20:04.000 --> 20:08.000 We need a strategy for funding of open source. 20:08.000 --> 20:09.000 We need to understand, 20:09.000 --> 20:11.000 actually, which open source is used 20:11.000 --> 20:13.000 where in the critical infrastructure 20:13.000 --> 20:14.000 in the public infrastructure, 20:14.000 --> 20:16.000 we need to find a way 20:16.000 --> 20:19.000 how to fund security 20:20.000 --> 20:22.000 for these open source components. 20:22.000 --> 20:24.000 Remember, of exeutils 20:24.000 --> 20:26.000 backdoor, 20:26.000 --> 20:28.000 for those who don't know 20:28.000 --> 20:29.000 that it was a backdoor 20:29.000 --> 20:33.000 that got into a library 20:33.000 --> 20:36.000 then through which subsequently, 20:36.000 --> 20:38.000 basically through a private key 20:38.000 --> 20:40.000 that was implanted there, 20:40.000 --> 20:41.000 the attacker could get 20:41.000 --> 20:44.000 basically to virtually all servers running 20:44.000 --> 20:45.000 SSH. 20:45.000 --> 20:46.000 That is the biggest, 20:47.000 --> 20:49.000 basically a backdoor, 20:49.000 --> 20:51.000 massively deployed everywhere 20:51.000 --> 20:53.000 on the internet. 20:53.000 --> 20:56.000 Because we don't have a strategy 20:56.000 --> 20:58.000 how to fund security 20:58.000 --> 21:00.000 of critical open source projects. 21:00.000 --> 21:02.000 So I think these are pieces 21:02.000 --> 21:05.000 of the solution that I would say 21:05.000 --> 21:07.000 to your question or answer to a question. 21:07.000 --> 21:09.000 What do we actually do 21:09.000 --> 21:11.000 that what this gentleman said, 21:11.000 --> 21:12.000 you know, 21:12.000 --> 21:13.000 is not happening. 21:14.000 --> 21:16.000 I have a couple more questions, 21:16.000 --> 21:18.000 but I already see that some, 21:18.000 --> 21:19.000 no, you're great. 21:19.000 --> 21:21.000 We are, 21:21.000 --> 21:23.000 we still have ten minutes left. 21:23.000 --> 21:25.000 So I think I'll open it up to questions 21:25.000 --> 21:26.000 from the audience. 21:26.000 --> 21:27.000 You've already raised your hand 21:27.000 --> 21:29.000 right about to be with you 21:29.000 --> 21:30.000 and then I'll take more questions. 21:30.000 --> 21:32.000 So you can already try and think 21:32.000 --> 21:35.000 about how we achieve this 21:35.000 --> 21:38.000 that we're discussing about. 21:38.000 --> 21:40.000 Sorry for being now a little bit critical. 21:40.000 --> 21:41.000 Of course, 21:41.000 --> 21:44.000 we're talking about the digital sovereignty 21:44.000 --> 21:46.000 problem by redefining 21:46.000 --> 21:50.000 different sovereignty as many times 21:50.000 --> 21:53.000 over until it's no problem anymore. 21:53.000 --> 21:54.000 But let me say, 21:54.000 --> 21:56.000 digital sovereignty is about 21:56.000 --> 21:57.000 the ability to act. 21:57.000 --> 21:59.000 So it's about power. 21:59.000 --> 22:00.000 Right? 22:00.000 --> 22:02.000 And we've seen 22:02.000 --> 22:05.000 that economy has been weaponized. 22:05.000 --> 22:06.000 Right? 22:06.000 --> 22:09.000 And there's something the Europeans didn't do. 22:09.000 --> 22:11.000 So, and it's not a startup problem, 22:11.000 --> 22:15.000 because it's no startup that challenges Europe. 22:15.000 --> 22:16.000 These are, 22:16.000 --> 22:18.000 they have been through a startup sometime, 22:18.000 --> 22:20.000 but they're not anymore. 22:20.000 --> 22:21.000 So Facebook, 22:21.000 --> 22:24.000 the big players, Microsoft, Amazon, 22:24.000 --> 22:26.000 there are no startups anymore. 22:26.000 --> 22:27.000 Right? 22:27.000 --> 22:28.000 But they are dominating, 22:28.000 --> 22:31.000 and the problem is they can be weaponized 22:31.000 --> 22:34.000 because some of the Western, 22:34.000 --> 22:36.000 or some of the countries out there 22:36.000 --> 22:38.000 is not only Western, 22:38.000 --> 22:41.000 but they have weaponized their citizens. 22:41.000 --> 22:44.000 They can basically turn every citizen 22:44.000 --> 22:46.000 by law into a weapon, 22:46.000 --> 22:49.000 by commanding him to do stuff. 22:49.000 --> 22:51.000 And that's the problem. 22:51.000 --> 22:53.000 What we need in Europe is 22:53.000 --> 22:55.000 we need execution, 22:55.000 --> 22:57.000 which means we need companies. 22:57.000 --> 23:00.000 But that means we have companies. 23:00.000 --> 23:01.000 We need to recognize them. 23:01.000 --> 23:02.000 And then, 23:02.000 --> 23:05.000 when it comes to state money, 23:05.000 --> 23:07.000 we need to buy from them, 23:07.000 --> 23:09.000 and not from the others. 23:09.000 --> 23:11.000 Thank you. 23:11.000 --> 23:13.000 How is the game show called 23:13.000 --> 23:15.000 where you have to put the answer 23:15.000 --> 23:17.000 in type of a question? 23:17.000 --> 23:19.000 Please, 23:19.000 --> 23:20.000 if you have questions, 23:20.000 --> 23:21.000 formulate them as questions, 23:21.000 --> 23:23.000 but maybe you want to react. 23:23.000 --> 23:25.000 Yeah, very quickly. 23:25.000 --> 23:26.000 So, 23:26.000 --> 23:28.000 what we see is that basically, 23:28.000 --> 23:31.000 not of the regions has had a good response 23:31.000 --> 23:34.000 for the wave of connectivity of the past 50 years. 23:34.000 --> 23:36.000 So, started with the internet, 23:36.000 --> 23:38.000 TCPRP pass on the packet. 23:38.000 --> 23:40.000 That was something alien on the planet, 23:40.000 --> 23:42.000 and it went like wildfire. 23:42.000 --> 23:44.000 Then, around 2000, 23:44.000 --> 23:45.000 we got the cloud. 23:45.000 --> 23:47.000 So, everything was a demo, 23:47.000 --> 23:49.000 but now they cloud hit 23:49.000 --> 23:51.000 and then all of the other things. 23:51.000 --> 23:52.000 So, in China, 23:52.000 --> 23:54.000 the politicians were engineers, 23:54.000 --> 23:55.000 computer scientists, 23:55.000 --> 23:58.000 and they understood perfectly this new hybrid territory. 23:58.000 --> 24:00.000 So, they would deep-spec packet inspection, 24:00.000 --> 24:01.000 they built their bubble. 24:01.000 --> 24:02.000 In the bubble, 24:02.000 --> 24:05.000 they run infrastructure services applications, 24:05.000 --> 24:07.000 which I think is brilliant. 24:07.000 --> 24:09.000 But, of course, 24:09.000 --> 24:12.000 they are a bit obsessive-compulsive 24:12.000 --> 24:14.000 when it comes to control. 24:14.000 --> 24:17.000 So, that system is not stable in the long run. 24:17.000 --> 24:19.000 It's cybernetically unstable, 24:19.000 --> 24:22.000 because it's too much stars is in the system. 24:22.000 --> 24:25.000 This wave hit the US 24:25.000 --> 24:27.000 through the entrepreneurial model. 24:27.000 --> 24:28.000 So, basically, 24:28.000 --> 24:30.000 we have 7 trillion, 24:30.000 --> 24:33.000 which is gaffer in hands of 10 individuals. 24:33.000 --> 24:35.000 It's also another stable system. 24:35.000 --> 24:38.000 It's not just that Europe was sort of not looking, 24:38.000 --> 24:40.000 nobody was looking. 24:40.000 --> 24:42.000 Everybody's building their response, 24:42.000 --> 24:45.000 but all the responses so far are not adequate. 24:45.000 --> 24:46.000 In Europe, 24:46.000 --> 24:48.000 basically, we had a legal response. 24:48.000 --> 24:50.000 Why? Because, again, 24:50.000 --> 24:52.000 if you look at the new commission, 24:52.000 --> 24:55.000 basically the vast majority of the commission are lawyers. 24:55.000 --> 24:59.000 Then, there's a few journalists and business consultants, 24:59.000 --> 25:02.000 and there's only one physicist that is running defense. 25:02.000 --> 25:04.000 This is not adequate. 25:04.000 --> 25:08.000 We don't really need this expertise at that moment 25:08.000 --> 25:12.000 or running kind of being steering the ship. 25:12.000 --> 25:15.000 So, what we need to do is to first of all, 25:15.000 --> 25:17.000 I think, with the strategy, 25:17.000 --> 25:20.000 is try to get a better balance between the lawyers 25:20.000 --> 25:23.000 and the computer scientists and the engineers. 25:23.000 --> 25:25.000 But, we basically need engineers 25:25.000 --> 25:28.000 in the steering room at this moment. 25:28.000 --> 25:31.000 We need this community on the table as equals. 25:31.000 --> 25:35.000 Not just as people doing small things, 25:35.000 --> 25:37.000 because everybody was doing small things 25:37.000 --> 25:39.000 until they become big things. 25:39.000 --> 25:41.000 But it's just to say that it's not just Europe. 25:41.000 --> 25:43.000 We didn't have a proper response. 25:43.000 --> 25:45.000 No one had a proper response. 25:47.000 --> 25:49.000 The name of a game show 25:49.000 --> 25:53.000 where you have to give the answer in the form of a question. 25:53.000 --> 25:55.000 What is jeopardy? 25:56.000 --> 25:59.000 So, in the form of a question, 25:59.000 --> 26:01.000 what do we want? 26:01.000 --> 26:06.000 Do we want companies like Google Facebook in Europe 26:06.000 --> 26:09.000 because a lot of lamentation seems to be 26:09.000 --> 26:12.000 oh, where are the tech companies in Europe? 26:12.000 --> 26:14.000 And I'm happy we don't have Google here, 26:14.000 --> 26:16.000 or Facebook being European? 26:16.000 --> 26:20.000 If the previous one is a person said, 26:20.000 --> 26:22.000 oh, if you're going to make everything open source, 26:22.000 --> 26:24.000 what strategy do we have? 26:25.000 --> 26:28.000 What is this strategy or what is the vision 26:28.000 --> 26:32.000 for what kind of entrepreneurial 26:32.000 --> 26:36.000 or market society we want? 26:36.000 --> 26:38.000 Do we want big companies if we want small ones? 26:38.000 --> 26:40.000 What kind of support are we willing to offer? 26:48.000 --> 26:50.000 Thanks for that question. 26:50.000 --> 26:53.000 Basically, on that round, 26:53.000 --> 26:56.000 I also wanted to challenge the previous question, 26:56.000 --> 26:59.000 which was not completely a question. 26:59.000 --> 27:02.000 Sorry, because I really don't think that we want 27:02.000 --> 27:06.000 the European Google and European meta and European 27:06.000 --> 27:09.000 other big tech companies, 27:09.000 --> 27:12.000 because they are, 27:12.000 --> 27:14.000 so huge extent, 27:14.000 --> 27:18.000 arguably, part of the problem. 27:19.000 --> 27:22.000 That's why the Digital Market Act was created, 27:22.000 --> 27:25.000 not because these companies are American, 27:25.000 --> 27:28.000 but because these companies concentrate so much power, 27:28.000 --> 27:31.000 and we can see today on social networks 27:31.000 --> 27:35.000 when Musk acquired Twitter and now Musk 27:35.000 --> 27:38.000 effectively became part of the US government. 27:38.000 --> 27:43.000 I mean, we can see how these big tech companies 27:43.000 --> 27:46.000 are inherently problematic 27:46.000 --> 27:49.000 if they are not properly regulated. 27:49.000 --> 27:52.000 And we also see how difficult it is 27:52.000 --> 27:55.000 to regulate these huge, 27:55.000 --> 27:58.000 big tech corporations. 27:58.000 --> 28:00.000 So I think that we should rather, 28:00.000 --> 28:04.000 and specifically, I think in this room, 28:04.000 --> 28:08.000 I think that someone has to say this, 28:08.000 --> 28:11.000 we need more decentralized economy 28:11.000 --> 28:14.000 of companies that offer decentralized, 28:14.000 --> 28:17.000 interoperable solutions that can be built upon 28:17.000 --> 28:19.000 and then you can have innovation on top of this 28:19.000 --> 28:21.000 interoperability. 28:21.000 --> 28:24.000 That is what I would also like to see 28:24.000 --> 28:27.000 as a strategy for digital sovereignty of Europe. 28:27.000 --> 28:29.000 And then of course, 28:29.000 --> 28:31.000 this applies to software 28:31.000 --> 28:33.000 from the hardware perspective, 28:33.000 --> 28:34.000 you should think about chips. 28:34.000 --> 28:35.000 Of course, 28:35.000 --> 28:38.000 there you cannot do it in a decentralized way 28:38.000 --> 28:39.000 because the capital investments, 28:39.000 --> 28:40.000 also you, 28:40.000 --> 28:42.000 you cannot have a small scale semiconductor 28:43.000 --> 28:45.000 factory that would be profitable. 28:45.000 --> 28:46.000 So then the key there are 28:46.000 --> 28:49.000 either public, private partnerships 28:49.000 --> 28:51.000 or multinational, 28:51.000 --> 28:53.000 or even European level consortia 28:53.000 --> 28:55.000 that will invest into the proper infrastructure 28:55.000 --> 28:56.000 and then be shared, 28:56.000 --> 28:58.000 maybe with smaller players. 28:58.000 --> 29:01.000 Because those kind of investments, 29:01.000 --> 29:03.000 you won't find the billions of euros 29:03.000 --> 29:05.000 that you need to get a new factory 29:05.000 --> 29:08.000 with a cutting edge process of the ground like that. 29:08.000 --> 29:11.000 And this is not something that scales down. 29:11.000 --> 29:15.000 So then you need to have the proper pool of resources 29:15.000 --> 29:17.000 and money and public support 29:17.000 --> 29:18.000 to make that happen. 29:18.000 --> 29:20.000 The good news is that there are plenty of large 29:20.000 --> 29:22.000 organisations in Europe already 29:22.000 --> 29:24.000 with that kind of expertise. 29:24.000 --> 29:26.000 But if you don't want a single one 29:26.000 --> 29:29.000 or a small group of them to control the market, 29:29.000 --> 29:32.000 then you need maybe to channel public investments 29:32.000 --> 29:35.000 in a way where you will have shared resources 29:35.000 --> 29:38.000 that smaller, fabulous fondries could use, 29:38.000 --> 29:41.000 for example, to get smaller batches of chips 29:41.000 --> 29:44.000 made, why still being profitable, for example. 29:44.000 --> 29:48.000 That's harder, let's say, than the sort of side of things, 29:48.000 --> 29:50.000 but this is necessary as well, 29:50.000 --> 29:53.000 because otherwise you will get one or two big companies 29:53.000 --> 29:55.000 that will sell chips and then you get 29:55.000 --> 29:58.000 into the same type of semi monopoly 29:58.000 --> 30:00.000 or oligarchy that you will use 30:00.000 --> 30:02.000 currently in the market. 30:03.000 --> 30:06.000 Thank you very much. 30:06.000 --> 30:08.000 There was another question in the audience. 30:08.000 --> 30:10.000 Yep. 30:10.000 --> 30:13.000 So there is a matter of, okay, 30:13.000 --> 30:16.000 so free and open source means a user choice, 30:16.000 --> 30:18.000 essentially boils down to the freedom, 30:18.000 --> 30:21.000 the definition of free software blah blah. 30:21.000 --> 30:25.000 So in that sense, regulating the phone market, 30:25.000 --> 30:27.000 regulating the industry, 30:27.000 --> 30:29.000 regulating CPUs and everything. 30:30.000 --> 30:34.000 Boils down to not essentially forcing users 30:34.000 --> 30:37.000 to make the choice between open source technologies. 30:37.000 --> 30:39.000 Like, my mother uses windows, 30:39.000 --> 30:41.000 my girlfriend uses windows, 30:41.000 --> 30:43.000 my father uses windows. 30:43.000 --> 30:45.000 He's a girlfriend uses windows. 30:45.000 --> 30:49.000 And they actively make the choice to use windows 30:49.000 --> 30:50.000 instead of Linux. 30:50.000 --> 30:51.000 I've talked them about Linux. 30:51.000 --> 30:53.000 I've showed them Linux and they have chosen 30:53.000 --> 30:56.000 with their own free capacity as humans. 30:56.000 --> 30:58.000 And adults to use windows. 30:58.000 --> 31:00.000 He's a proprietary software. 31:00.000 --> 31:02.000 So in the end to use proprietary phones, 31:02.000 --> 31:05.000 they don't care about their freedom, 31:05.000 --> 31:06.000 essentially. 31:06.000 --> 31:10.000 They have chosen to not choose as effectively. 31:10.000 --> 31:12.000 And in that sense, 31:12.000 --> 31:14.000 it's not a matter of regulation, 31:14.000 --> 31:17.000 it's a matter of steering, 31:17.000 --> 31:20.000 public opinion towards free and open source. 31:20.000 --> 31:23.000 And it's also a matter of not forcing them 31:23.000 --> 31:26.000 and regulating them to use things. 31:26.000 --> 31:29.000 Because then it's not free and open source. 31:29.000 --> 31:32.000 It's more of a source available. 31:32.000 --> 31:36.000 Men philosophy for using free and open source products, 31:36.000 --> 31:37.000 effectively, 31:37.000 --> 31:39.000 which goes against the idea of free software and 31:39.000 --> 31:40.000 of open software. 31:40.000 --> 31:43.000 So how would you tackle this problem? 31:43.000 --> 31:44.000 I know, 31:44.000 --> 31:46.000 I have to praise it as a question rather than 31:46.000 --> 31:50.000 go on a deep monologue about life experiences. 31:51.000 --> 31:56.000 So how would be the best way to tackle with the idea of 31:56.000 --> 32:00.000 not betraying free software and open source software? 32:00.000 --> 32:04.000 What would be a good way to promote something 32:04.000 --> 32:06.000 that does not make money? 32:06.000 --> 32:08.000 And so that people will not look, 32:08.000 --> 32:12.000 how would the people in the European Union look 32:12.000 --> 32:15.000 forward to promoting this kind of stuff? 32:15.000 --> 32:21.000 So my answer to that is simple. 32:21.000 --> 32:25.000 Why is Windows the dominant operating system? 32:25.000 --> 32:27.000 Because they have money? 32:27.000 --> 32:28.000 No. 32:28.000 --> 32:30.000 Because at that point in history, 32:30.000 --> 32:33.000 people wanted to run specific apps on it. 32:33.000 --> 32:34.000 Okay. 32:34.000 --> 32:38.000 It was Windows versus OS 2 at a some point 32:38.000 --> 32:40.000 and people picked Windows because you 32:40.000 --> 32:43.000 had office on it and other things that the other didn't. 32:43.000 --> 32:45.000 So if you want to promote open source, 32:45.000 --> 32:48.000 build a better phone on open source technologies 32:48.000 --> 32:50.000 or build a better product. 32:50.000 --> 32:54.000 And then people want to have to understand open source. 32:54.000 --> 32:56.000 That's the key thing. 32:56.000 --> 32:58.000 Often in the open source community, 32:58.000 --> 33:00.000 we have a tendency to embarrass ourselves 33:00.000 --> 33:03.000 into big debates about semantics and all of that 33:03.000 --> 33:06.000 about labor versus open versus whatever. 33:06.000 --> 33:08.000 When in the end, 33:08.000 --> 33:11.000 end users don't care and will never care. 33:11.000 --> 33:13.000 And that's the type of problem that we have 33:13.000 --> 33:15.000 at the eclipse foundation as well 33:15.000 --> 33:17.000 in the Linux foundation and not your bodies. 33:17.000 --> 33:18.000 In the sense, 33:18.000 --> 33:21.000 if I need to explain what open source is 33:21.000 --> 33:22.000 in order to get a member, 33:22.000 --> 33:25.000 my job is incrementally more difficult 33:25.000 --> 33:29.000 than getting them to adopt a specific piece of technology. 33:29.000 --> 33:31.000 So I shouldn't have to explain that. 33:31.000 --> 33:33.000 Not that it doesn't matter. 33:33.000 --> 33:34.000 It matters. 33:34.000 --> 33:35.000 And a lot. 33:35.000 --> 33:38.000 But it matters to me as a deeply embedded person 33:38.000 --> 33:39.000 in the open source community, 33:39.000 --> 33:40.000 not to the outside world. 33:40.000 --> 33:42.000 So build a better product. 33:45.000 --> 33:46.000 All right. 33:46.000 --> 33:47.000 There were a couple more questions. 33:47.000 --> 33:49.000 We're also running into the wrap-up time. 33:49.000 --> 33:52.000 So I'm already thinking of what I might say 33:52.000 --> 33:54.000 to wrap this up. 33:54.000 --> 33:57.000 But please be very succinct with your question. 34:01.000 --> 34:04.000 So my question is restricted 34:04.000 --> 34:08.000 to public sector procurement. 34:08.000 --> 34:12.000 Although I'm thinking of the bureau, 34:12.000 --> 34:14.000 but it applies to all of you, 34:14.000 --> 34:16.000 which is, 34:16.000 --> 34:20.000 do you think that a single strategy 34:20.000 --> 34:22.000 of public procurement, 34:22.000 --> 34:23.000 which centers on, 34:23.000 --> 34:25.000 avoiding at all costs, 34:25.000 --> 34:27.000 vendor lock-in, 34:27.000 --> 34:30.000 and having technology, 34:30.000 --> 34:32.000 limitation of ten years, 34:32.000 --> 34:34.000 which means that every ten years 34:34.000 --> 34:36.000 you had to make the full switch, 34:36.000 --> 34:38.000 migration and so on, 34:38.000 --> 34:42.000 would be enough to make the switch 34:42.000 --> 34:44.000 to open source. 34:55.000 --> 34:57.000 That's a good question. 35:01.000 --> 35:04.000 I can just at least say something. 35:05.000 --> 35:07.000 But I, 35:07.000 --> 35:10.000 I honestly don't think that is enough, 35:10.000 --> 35:13.000 mostly because 35:13.000 --> 35:17.000 this procurement process should reflect our values, 35:17.000 --> 35:20.000 and maybe some kind of restrictions like that 35:20.000 --> 35:22.000 are part of that because of our values, 35:22.000 --> 35:25.000 but that goes again to this social change, 35:25.000 --> 35:27.000 to this cultural change, 35:27.000 --> 35:31.000 of accepting and knowing these things as important. 35:32.000 --> 35:34.000 So I think that that has to be part of it 35:34.000 --> 35:35.000 for the, 35:35.000 --> 35:37.000 like a different procurement process 35:37.000 --> 35:38.000 to be accepted by, 35:38.000 --> 35:40.000 you know, society. 35:42.000 --> 35:43.000 Oh, sorry. 35:43.000 --> 35:46.000 And then maybe it's the good time 35:46.000 --> 35:48.000 to come back to the notion 35:48.000 --> 35:49.000 that we had this afternoon of 35:49.000 --> 35:52.000 common good and common goods in the sense 35:52.000 --> 35:53.000 that, of course, 35:53.000 --> 35:56.000 if there's public money going into anything, 35:56.000 --> 35:58.000 then it makes sense that 35:59.000 --> 36:00.000 the public, so to speak, 36:00.000 --> 36:02.000 the taxpayer or the citizen, 36:02.000 --> 36:04.000 if I take a higher view there, 36:04.000 --> 36:06.000 should have something in return, right? 36:06.000 --> 36:08.000 And from that perspective, 36:08.000 --> 36:10.000 well, this would involve probably 36:10.000 --> 36:12.000 changes in the way that governments do 36:12.000 --> 36:14.000 tenders and things like that. 36:14.000 --> 36:16.000 But certainly having this notion of 36:16.000 --> 36:18.000 something given back by the winners 36:18.000 --> 36:20.000 to the community or to, 36:20.000 --> 36:23.000 to the citizens that are funding them, 36:23.000 --> 36:26.000 could be an interesting idea to consider. 36:27.000 --> 36:29.000 And of course you have to 36:29.000 --> 36:32.000 change a lot of things for that to happen. 36:32.000 --> 36:34.000 But that's probably one of the ways 36:34.000 --> 36:37.000 where governments have the power to do something. 36:40.000 --> 36:41.000 Thank you so much, 36:41.000 --> 36:42.000 dear panelists. 36:42.000 --> 36:44.000 Unfortunately, there's no more time for 36:44.000 --> 36:45.000 more questions. 36:45.000 --> 36:47.000 But I'm sure these guys are going to be 36:47.000 --> 36:49.000 around for a couple of minutes. 36:49.000 --> 36:51.000 Maybe in the room, 36:51.000 --> 36:53.000 preferably outside of the room if you have questions. 36:53.000 --> 36:55.000 And now to wrap this whole session up, 36:55.000 --> 36:59.000 this was about increasing the competitiveness of Europe. 36:59.000 --> 37:03.000 And while we have heard that we won't find 37:03.000 --> 37:05.000 billions lying around on the street to create 37:05.000 --> 37:07.000 tips factories, 37:07.000 --> 37:11.000 maybe we do find some money lying around in the EU budget, 37:11.000 --> 37:14.000 because not only is the reform of the public 37:14.000 --> 37:16.000 procurement directive coming up, 37:16.000 --> 37:20.000 where we definitely should in incentivize 37:20.000 --> 37:24.000 governments and administrations to publish, 37:24.000 --> 37:28.000 and then also make sure that it's public code, 37:28.000 --> 37:31.000 because if they're investing into software, 37:31.000 --> 37:33.000 if they're buying software, 37:33.000 --> 37:36.000 that should also benefit the whole of Europe. 37:36.000 --> 37:39.000 And that goes through investing 37:39.000 --> 37:41.000 into European technology through 37:41.000 --> 37:42.000 your open source. 37:42.000 --> 37:46.000 We have heard that we can manage to 37:46.000 --> 37:49.000 make businesses in Europe that are mostly SMEs 37:49.000 --> 37:51.000 when it comes to IT sector, 37:51.000 --> 37:54.000 work together on projects using open source 37:54.000 --> 37:56.000 as a development philosophy, 37:56.000 --> 37:59.000 as a business model. 37:59.000 --> 38:01.000 And maybe eventually, 38:01.000 --> 38:03.000 in about two years' time in the summer, 38:03.000 --> 38:06.000 we will have the discussions starting 38:06.000 --> 38:08.000 about the next long-term, 38:08.000 --> 38:10.000 seven-year budget of the European Union. 38:10.000 --> 38:12.000 Maybe there is someone in there 38:12.000 --> 38:15.000 that can actually be put to good use 38:15.000 --> 38:17.000 to increase our competitiveness, 38:17.000 --> 38:20.000 and to realize the strategic value of open source. 38:21.000 --> 38:23.000 My two cents on that. 38:23.000 --> 38:24.000 Thank you so much, panel. 38:24.000 --> 38:26.000 Thank you for everybody to meet here.